Dolly / Jib Hybrid for tight spaces

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Hello everybody.

I've always thought about some device that would allow me to do standard tracking shots and also achieve vertical displacement, like a jib/crane would do.

I know, if you place a jib arm on a tripod and put the tripod on top of a dolly, you have both, but that's a solution that takes a lot of space and you can't use it indoors.

Of course there are pro dollies that have a hydraulic device that gets the camera+operator higher, but this dolly must cost lots and lots of monies.

So I was thinking in a good budget way to do this (if it already exists, please tell me). I thought about a vertical track that would take the camera lower and higher with counter-weights to "zero" the gravity.

And a spinning base so that you could pan 360º and not show the vertical track by the side of the camera.

I draw a quick draft here, nothing fancy or in the right proportions, just to illustrate the ideas:

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/144/dollyjibhybrid2.th.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/144/dollyjibhybrid2.jpg)

So what do you guys think?
Is that plausible? Easy to build?

I think it would provide a significant benefit, allowing more interesting shots of tight interiors and speeding up the shooting process as a whole.

:thumbsup:

Please chime in!

[Peter Majtan]

I think it is a great idea! I am building a dolly this week, but was thinking to go along a different lines. Given more thought this could work rather well. The pully system is the first I would work on if I were You... :D

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Hey Peter, I have ZERO experience on DIY and zero ability with my own hands.

So, how exactly would you improve/change the pully (thanks for reminding me of that word) system?

[Peter Majtan]

I will need to sit down on this (which I have to do anyway sooner or later), but I have a job to finish for tomorrow. Gimme couple of days and I will get back to You... :D

PS: I just realized we are both "rocks" (Peter & Pietro)... :devil:

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

I'll be waiting Peter, please do so!

Yeah, I usually don't publish my first name, it's just that sometimes it's too big for a display name on forums and I like my last name better :).

I ask everybody to join this discussion with good ideas!

[Erik Bien]

Maybe some sort of pillow blocks on rails arrangement for the camera platform, like an IndiSLIDER (http://www.indifocus.com/products_indisliderpro.htm) stood on end, could help smooth out the vertical movement (btw, I think it's a very promising idea!). :thumbsup:

[Andrew]

You might also want to consider using a block and tackle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_and_tackle) arrangement. I think it would make the motion a little smoother. You could pull the camera up at a ratio much less than 1:1 so it would even out the motion a little. Then you could run the cable around a reel with one of those old school cinema camera pan/tilt wheels, like the ones in the picture below. What do you think?

http://www.independentchristianfilms.com/news/article_2006-09-19_camera.jpg

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

You might also want to consider using a block and tackle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_and_tackle) arrangement. I think it would make the motion a little smoother. You could pull the camera up at a ratio much less than 1:1 so it would even out the motion a little. Then you could run the cable around a reel with one of those old school cinema camera pan/tilt wheels, like the ones in the picture below. What do you think?

I'm not so sure I follow you Andrew...
:(

Maybe some sort of pillow blocks on rails arrangement for the camera platform, like an IndiSLIDER (http://www.indifocus.com/products_indisliderpro.htm) stood on end, could help smooth out the vertical movement (btw, I think it's a very promising idea!). :thumbsup:

My idea is definitely based on the IndiSLIDER design.

The side rails would be exactly like the ones found on the IndiSLIDER, and they would sustain the camera platform.

What differ is there would need to be a pully system, connecting to a wheel on top and weights at the other side, to stabilize the system.

I'm not so sure how the rotating base platform would work though.

I'll make a second draft.

[Erik Bien]

I'm not so sure how the rotating base platform would work though.

Basically you need an oversize lazy susan bearing (http://www.hectorshardware.biz/shop/product.asp?dept_id=827&sku=212458&) ...

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Updated Second Draft...

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/8467/dollyjibhybrid2sz2.th.jpg (http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/8467/dollyjibhybrid2sz2.jpg)

[yin yang]

I like your idea Impagliazzo (http://www.scarletuser.com/member.php?u=136), mainly because it's totally different to my brainstorm on the solution. For the last 3 weeks I've been searching for a solution to tracking vertically in tight spaces. I really thought there would be some sort of miniature motorised scissor lift out there - but nothing so far. I'm not so bothered about panning, I just want nice smooth and quiet action 50-75cm. Please post your development, and if anyone knows of an existing solution that doesn't cost telephone numbers then please post here.:thumbsup:

[Tim Hole]

An alternative to this is the Scissor Lift style http://www.one11mx.com/images/mx%20scissor%20lift.jpg. It could have a floating base for controlled 360 swivel, or you could go to a scrap dealer get some pneumatic stems they use for car boots (trunks in US). It would be relatively easy to build a servo driven model that could be remote controlled actually saying that...Interesting.

EDIT:Sorry. Wrote a reply without reading ying yangs reply. But some bizaare similarities!

[Tim Hole]

It would probably be an idea to integrate some bellows (rubber, polyurethane or even canvas) in there as well don't want to trap any pinkies (fingers) in there.

[Erik Bien]

Scissor-lifts are good at moving heavy loads securely (which is why they're used for things like pop-up TV lifts in furniture, car jacks and man-lift work platforms) but they tend to be heavy, noisy and slow (and yes, dangerous to anything that gets where it shouldn't in the "scissor" ... maybe not so good when moving around a camera sprouting more tendrils than a jellyfish, not to mention a dolly grip, camera op and 1AC who are all concentrating on anything but losing their digits to the jib mechanism).

[Tim Hole]

I totally agree with you, however I am talking about the design principle, one that has been used in dozens of applications. One of which is the studio lights I'm sure you've seen. Obviously control is all about resistence and a happy medium could be found to get the right amount of control. http://www.cpmdelta1.com/Product%20Art/40642%20Scissor%20Lift%20Expanded.jpg

[Andrew]

I'm not so sure I follow you Andrew...
:(

Sorry, I was a big vague. I've added my idea to your second draft. Instead of having the one cable pull the camera up, you could have more, meaning that you have to pull faster to move it at the same speed, smoothing out the motion. You could also have a reel to pull it (ideally just the one reel to keep it level instead of two in the diagram)
Please excuse my dodgy drawing! I've added new cables in green and red so that you can tell them apart. See the zip file for the full size PNG

http://andrewgentle.com/transfer/dolly_jib_2.5_thumb.jpg (http://andrewgentle.com/transfer/dolly_jib_2.5.png)

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

I think the wheels (reel?!) are not going to help.

Would I have to turn them at the same time? That would be a little clumsy to pull of with both arms.
And why more cables means moving faster for the same speed? Sorry but I'm no physics expert...

:embarassed:

Anyway the handles I drew are in perfect place (I think) for panning, and rising and lowering the camera and even pushing the dolly (if it's light enough) at the same time.

If one could place focus control in one handle and zoom in the other, man that would be a kick-S rig!

:shocked:

An alternative to this is the Scissor Lift style http://www.one11mx.com/images/mx%20scissor%20lift.jpg. It could have a floating base for controlled 360 swivel, or you could go to a scrap dealer get some pneumatic stems they use for car boots (trunks in US). It would be relatively easy to build a servo driven model that could be remote controlled actually saying that...Interesting.

EDIT:Sorry. Wrote a reply without reading ying yangs reply. But some bizaare similarities!

Would that need power? Would that be enough for lifting a 2.5kg (5.5lb)?
Would that be light enough?

Looks like a solution, but I think the two-sliders with counter-balance weight would be a better one.

Less prone to jamming, maybe smoother and safer (even with something protecting from fingers getting below of it, cheat happens).

[Andrew]

I think the wheels (reel?!) are not going to help.

Would I have to turn them at the same time? That would be a little clumsy to pull of with both arms.


Yeah, ideally you'd want just the one reel so that it would stay level, as I said. I couldn't think of a good way to link them though.

And why more cables means moving faster for the same speed? Sorry but I'm no physics expert...

:embarassed:

It's the principle of a block and tackle, explained well on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_and_tackle): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_and_tackle

I know it's not perfect, it was just an idea! :)

[Chris Newman]

I would suggest you just use a single track (on one side.) That way, the base won't need to rotate smoothly, you can just set it before the shot and pan with your fluid head under the camera. This should give you plenty of pan range for nearly all shots. Also, you won't have to figure out how to move at the same speed on both tracks.

[JPSendall]

Considering you have invented this for a tight space then operating it easily is prime. Suspension and pulleys are your best bet. Like a jib I suppose you can add weights if you want different weighted cameras on it. The plate or bowl should be able to take a good quality fluid head so that a minor effort flies the thing up and down and you can pan and tilt at the same time. The arm coming off the head should be enough to control the vertical trolley. The unit in which the head sits should, I think, be travelling up and down within upright rails. They have something very similar in theatre to fly scenery in and out. The weights in a theatre travel up and down within a railed structure, wheels moving inside the upright rails. It keeps the whole thing steady.

Adding gears (like the Pana photo) to move the thing up and down isn't a good idea because then it requires a second operator and this is for tight spaces. However pneumatics is a good idea. Using air pressure withing a column to allow the column to fall evenly (like an office chair) might work but might also be too expensive. Some dollies already use this principle.

But you know what? A short jib is pretty good in a tight space. It may not dolly easily but making it rise and fall is very simple.

Another idea is a barracuda (do they still make them?). It's basically a pole that can be extended between the floor and the ceiling and then tightened off. Lights can be rigged to them but there is no reason why a short one can't be rigged between two walls and then a weighted arm attached across it, cam one end the wegghts the other. Hey presto, a fast jib in a tight space. But again no dolly movement. I guess you're looking for the dolly movement as well.

OK, one more idea and that's me done. It seems to the trouble is dollying steady. A lot of cheap dollies out there just don't hack it and when you need to get a man on board and a tripod forget it. If the dolly move needed is a short one then why not have some sort of boom that travels horizontally through a stationary device. Make the boom fairly thick but hollow. Let the boom travel through two holes with each hole with wheels angled inwards so that the travel of the boom is smooth. The holes can be with a structure that is secured and stationary. The boom travels in and out according to shot needs. Now all you need to do is sort out the weight distribution problem but it is handled mostly by the fact the boom is going through two holes and not one.

[Cedric_Akins]

I am a huge fan of DIY this looks interesting.

[yin yang]

I know this thread's gone quiet but my mind hasn't on this one. Posting this link (http://www.popuptvs.net/STANDARD-700MM-ACTUATOR-COMPLETE-WITH-HAND-HELD-MANUAL-CONTROL-) to get some feedback before I take this further.
It's a DIY LCD/Plasma TV lift, £109.

This device gives us LIFT, it can handle up to 80kg, rise & fall 700mm, smoothly & quietly, 40mm/1second, remote cord or IR control. Secure this well to a tripod then attach the (made or adapted) camera cradle, plate or tripod head. Take a look, it could be a solution and a low cost one too.Thoughts anyone?

[Granty]

What about the Handy jib at:

http://www.b-hague.co.uk/

You will need to have image stablizer on, but it may do for your needs.

It may sound silly but this technic works and is so simple, when I was at University these dudes wanted a shot that moved towards a car, and then continued on and up lifting over the car, and beyond. The finished shot looked great and nobody could work out how they did it. (this was on a film camera, so no stabliser was used, pre-dated them anyway)

One night I got one of them drunk and he told me, they drilled a hole bang in the centre of a short plank of wood, then they held each end of the plank and moved toward the car then up and over, easy. The longer (and wider, becoming a four man board) you can make the wood the more stable the shot, and the wider the lens the more stable also.

I hope this helps, simple and it will cost next to nothing to make. Worth a try - you can even have a third person pulling focus, unless you across plan to fly over something.

[Andrew]

That Handy Jib looks pretty cool. It's a shame it's only for 1.5 kg cameras, Scarlet will be closer to 2 kgs. I wonder if they make a heavier-duty one?

We now believe Scarlet will tip the scales at just under 4.5 pounds.

[Granty]

That Handy Jib looks pretty cool. It's a shame it's only for 1.5 kg cameras, Scarlet will be closer to 2 kgs. I wonder if they make a heavier-duty one?

Yeah, good for handycam shooting, they bring out new kit all the time, worth sending an email, if their was enough demand I'm sure they would do one.

Found this in India for $175+
http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/11961544/Cine_Jib_Arm_Crane_Upto_2kg_Camera_Weight.html

Compact, but may not be relevant for this thread

That other company do some cool suction mounts for cars:

http://www.b-hague.co.uk/camera_suction_pads_vacuum_mounts.htm

Don't know if I'd trust them with a Scarlet on them! But looking at the kit they sell, they do everything I'll need for a Indie production apart from camera, but RED we have that sorted soon.

Has anyone used that Handy Jib, or something similar?

[aldebiasi14]

Impagliazzo,

Andrew's idea is good because more cable=moving faster (but...)=smoother lift.

...and the wheels are also a good idea because it will give you a smother and more controlled ride.

I agree that it isn't practical to have two wheels... so just use one:

-steel using cables on both side, make one cable joining the wheel on the other side.

am i being clear?

[USlatin]

Nice concept.

I would make the columns as tall as the average door way and the cables as long as the columns that way the weights are all the way down at the highest position and all the way up at the lowest.

It is going to be a heavy sucker to make it sturdy. Then again that makes for smoother dolly operation. Are you going to go through with this? It looks like a ton of work.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

I'm not going to go through with this... Unfortunately.
I don't have the skill set to do this.

So I invite/encourage anyone that wants to actually build it to go ahead.

[USlatin]

I see some issues with it, mainly is the operation. Unless it were motorized it would be nearly impossible to make a unit that wouldn't rock back and forth from the op's handling. But it it were motorized... :)
So I'd just go ahead and put it on one of those remote controlled carts with small "real" tires and now you got yourself no need for a dolly and your ability to control height without swinging from a pivot point.
Run the rehearsal then hit the button to repeat once you got what you want and you can eliminate the operator's errors! lol... that sounds SO bad :)
Of course you would still need an operator to react to the actor's mistakes... though we could make more robots for that too!!!

HAHAHAH

[holy_handgrenade]

Wow!

I think I understand where Impagliazzo was confused. *IF* I understood him correctly, the reasoning for the weights was to zero out the platform, the handles on the back side of the plaform was so that the platform itself was "free floating" on the 2 rails, allowing you to move up quickly if you wanted to or slowly if needed, using only the handles at the back to guide the platform as a whole during the jib, pan, and dolly moves.

I think the initial design was a lot more efficient for that kind of thing and would prove to be an awesome tool. Over complicating it with the slower crank wheels might slow it down too much - although it might be excellent for some shots.