Soccer Moms/Dads with Scarlet

[Zac C]

Ok, so half of us here realize this was a joke made by Jim telling the range of selling this product. I don't really think they are expecting reg. soccer moms to go our and buy this, then go out buy a computer that can handle it. So in reality, for those who think soccer mom's buying this is a real thought.... rethink this

It also a joke thats getting old. lol

Also the think that sparked this thought, was in another thread... someone said "for the point and shoot folks, they want an easy workflow" How many people are buying this for a point and shoot camera? DP's who get this as a stunt cam are going to have the editing capabilities to do any workflow.Indie Filmmakers.... youll be already having a computer to work with Scarlet. lol I know some are kidders. It will be a realitvely easy workflow, but you're going to be backing it up RAID-ing it and knowing what your doing to make it your own personal easy workflow... i have serious doubt there will be many just "point and shoot-ers" around these parts with this camera


Humbly Stated with Humor,

Zac

Scarlet #927/27/270/1

[David S.]

Does the RED Raw footage need to be graded?

Wonder if a whole new industry will open to permit SM to CC.

[Erik Bien]

I suspect the first software company to write a Kai's Photo Soap-style "one-click enhance" color-grading/transcoding app to deal with 3K .R3Ds will find themselves richly rewarded.

[Christoffer]

Not even the professionals are familiar or "at home" with the handling of RAW material, so that's why I believe that this camera never will make it to these so called soccer moms.

There are so many in here that think a camera will make their film career dreams come to life.
Scarlet is a professional tool, period. It's even stated by Jim that it is. It's primary for people working with digital cinema or high quality moving images.
The workflow is even more targeted to those who make movies and even if it's a fast workflow for this quality, it's really slow for the "soccer moms".

Stop using these terms because as Zac said, it was a joke...
And stop using the terms in a serious way as an argument for whom it's targeted for. It's getting annoying to hear people use it in a serious tone.

[Jon Sagud]

Stop using these terms because as Zac said, it was a joke...
And stop using the terms in a serious way as an argument for whom it's targeted for. It's getting annoying to hear people use it in a serious tone.

OK, first of all, dude, chill out.

This is an open forum for an exchange of ideas and establishing a community. Through it, RED will learn a lot of what people want and how they perceive their use of the camera. It's not a place for you to tell people what to "stop doing". It shouldn't be that annoying to you, and if it is, I might suggest taking up drawing or painting or some other relaxing hobby.

Substitute "consumer use" for "soccer mom" in your mind, if that helps make it more palatable. Yes, this is a Professional product, in its execution, in its design, in its capabilities, but the key concept here is its ability to cross over to a consumer world. I'm a consumer. I don't shoot for money, I shoot for the love of the sport. Look up the root derivative for "amateur". We participate for the "love" of the exercise. I will use Scarlet as my motion camera. I will use Scarlet as my still camera. The workflow is brilliant and simple. But I'll also hook the camera up to my HD projector and view straight from the camera often as not.

It's a big world, with lots of applications, users and ideas. Try not to be too close minded or conciliatory to those who view it differently from you. We're all here to exchange ideas. We shouldn't be afraid to upset you. Lighten up and enjoy the ride.

[David S.]

I agree that Scarlet is hardly going to be a 3K cam "for the masses."

Nor will it appear at any box store, or anything similar.

The idea that any soccer, golf, or T-ball Mom is going to use this cam is more than a stretch.

My guess is that RED will certify trainers for color correction on Scarlet, and a number of instructional DVDs will be available.

And I also agree that in a public forum, there isn't room for one user telling another to "stop" anything they find "annoying."

That's why we have remote controls.

[Isaac Brody]

I agree that Scarlet is hardly going to be a 3K cam "for the masses."

I think it depends on how you define masses. Obviously not everyone will pick up Scarlet when they can spend a couple hundred an a small canon or sony.

But there's a huge mass of people shooting with Sony, Panasonic, and JVC gear that will pick up Scarlet if it delivers. "Soccer Mom" was a figure of speech. 3K is terribly affordable for what's being offered. Just the fact that we're bypassing HDV/AVCHD compression is huge. I'm not sure how many DVX's have been sold, but that's a huge market.

[Barry Green]

"the masses" is absolutely the question. As near as I can tell, from all sources added together, my guess on DVX100 sales is that it clocked around 80,000 to 100,000 units over its six-year lifetime (so far). That ain't bad, but it's not exactly like the iPod, y'know?

On the other hand, Canon claimed for its new AVC-HD consumer models that they would sell 35,000 to 45,000 PER MONTH. And that's Canon, not Sony or Panasonic!

So a true consumer unit sells easily 10x to 100x as many units as a professional unit. Scarlet has so far been positioned as a professional product.

[David S.]

I agree that Scarlet is hardly going to be a 3K cam for the "soccer mom" masses.

[Jon Sagud]

OK, here's an analogy. Go back 50 years (yeah, most of you have to pretend). The average guy was shooting a Hawkeye or maybe an Argus C3. Lots of point n' shoots from Kodak filled the shelves of the "masses". Now the guy that was shooting a Nikon S2 or a Leica M3, that's your Scarlet guy. He could be a photojournalist, fashion photographer, maybe even a National Geographic contributor. But he could also just be an enthusiast, someone with a higher standard and the appreciation of quality. A pro? Nope, but skilled, talented and always looking for the best result.

Will people that were going to buy a sub-thousand dollar video camera going to step up to a Scarlet. You bet. Specially if they've also got a nice DSLR in the bag. They will appreciate the quality. Is the doctor/lawyer consumer that was going to pick up a $3K-$7K video camera for shooting his kid's soccer games a player? That's a no brainer. There is a huge enthusiast market out there that will see Scarlet as their piece of imaging history. Editing R3D files is going to be the standard, the rule. RAW will become the default technology for still and motion capture and automation will bring it to the "masses". The impact of this technology is going to be huge.

It will always be a premium product, for the pro, for the enthusiast, for the hobbyist. But, don't count out the soccer moms. I know a few in Newport Beach that could give you a run for your money ;-)

[Zac C]

"Lets not bicker and argue about who kill who"

I was just setting the record straight... not banning it from use...

SOCCERMOM= CONSUMER USER.... just in a humorous way...

^^^^just sticky that sentence

[Barry Green]

Editing R3D files is going to be the standard, the rule.
Jon, this is the second time you've talked about editing R3D files. What new can you tell us? Because as it stands right now, editing R3D files is torturous as compared to edit-ready formats like P2 or AVI or m2ts or whatever else other products use.

Obviously you know something we don't. Are we going to be seeing direct R3D support in Adobe soon? Exporting files from RedCine or Red Alert is not a useful workflow. I can only assume that you're trying to tell us that the majors (the A-team, Avid, Apple, and Adobe) are going to support direct editing of R3D files. I'm sure the folks at Canopus/Grass Valley are already nagging you for an SDK.

I admit I'm reading between the lines here, but I think I'm reading right in that you're trying to tell us something. So, go ahead and tell us! :)

[John Caballero]

We have some major issues here. In order for the “masses” to be able to handle this RAW files with ease something huge have to happen in the software processing and rendering side. That coupled with faster and more powerful computers will then do the trick. Otherwise we won’t see RAW editing becoming a standard very soon. There is way too much struggling with these files right now to suddenly become easier to handle.

[Jason Ramsey]

A year is a long time, and the RED One is very popular. I'm sure RED is well aware that the workflow will have to be there since they are trying to appeal to the larger audience.

That's a year to work out kinks with RED one, which will directly benefit Scarlet. A year for more options to become available.

A year is a long time and a lot can and will change/happen... I don't think we'll have anymore of a problem with workflow when this camera first comes out then people did with P2, or do now with AVCHD in terms of variety of options and ease of use.

Heck, by the time Scarlet is out, we could very well see much more broad integration of R3D into the various NLE's than when comparing to the early days of P2, etc, etc.

RED One will have been in the field for a couple of years by then. So, while the camera will be new, R3D will not.

Later,
Jason

[13th Judas]

OK i have a confession: I am a sucker mom, oopppsss ... i mean, a soccer dad (damn, the terminology is so confusing. i hope my wife doesn't read this). anyway, let me just tell you what i am. i am a guy who loves images - whether it is still, moving or live. i currently shoot my kid and friends (my wife is camera shy) with my beloved GS500. (OK you can laugh for a while .................. now that's enough, let me continue). i became a hit with my friends ever since i started uploading my videos on youtube. one of my friends said that i am a new spielberg. that friend of mine is so sweet. it's just a shame that he's been held in contempt for being a false witness. anyway, last xmas, my wife bought this HDTV. and you would guess how awful my SD video when viewed on that HD machine. so, to keep up with my reputation as the new spielberg, i decided that i have to go HD. i am eyeing for the new panasonic releases: the HMC150 and HPX170. well, i'm not going to the route of canon hv20/30 or hf10/100 cause i think i have out lived the on-menu manual settings of my gs500. but since the price of scarlet is within the range of 150 and 170 (oh i'm sorry, i think it will be much lower), the red team will get my money. the only reason that makes me think twice is its 'professional' label. but i can set it on auto pilot, yeah? so, i should be alright. OK now the workflow. did i tell you that i'm just currently using a SD cam? so, you're right. whether i get the 150, 170 or scarlet, i will need to upgrade my computer anyway. now, do i have money to spend for all these? did i mention that i'm a soccer dad? well, if my kid gets a ticket to the premiership someday, i'll just show him the receipts.

now i guess there's no reason for me not to get a scarlet when it's release, not unless, jim doesn't want to sell this toy to a soccer dad like me.

[MattN]

I'd shoot little kids playing soccer with this. You could make bank selling the footage back to their mom's.

[tresch]

:yikes:I'd shoot little kids playing soccer with this. You could make bank selling the footage back to their mom's.

You'll first go to jail!!!!:smilielol5:

Pat

[MattN]

not that kind of footage! :yikes:

[Gojira]

I am a cross-over from the digital still world.........

How I see Scarlet from my perspective is an experiment for me to add my other (money-making) hobby. Next year when Scarlet hits the market I will go to a lacrosse game and see what is possible. I wish it would be possible to use on a football game. I want to see 180fps as a receiver pulls a ball out of the air and go back and get that image as the ball touches the fingertips..........and be able to print an 8x10" from that.

The greatest problem that I face is outfitting a new Mac Pro for next year so that I can continue being a semi-pro photographer and an amateur videographer all with the same machine.

I hope that when Scarlett becomes real that it would be possible to get some informal seminars going in southern california where we could meet and share in real-time.

Randy

[Gojira]

Football Dads and Little League Moms,

Most of the parents that I find at sporting events don't want to be on the sidelines taking photos or video, they would rather be watching the games themselves.......

What they have told me is that they are afraid that they will not have any pictures and/or footage of their children once their playing days are over. Most parents would rather pay someone (else) to do it. That is how I got my start four years ago. Students saw my work and asked me to photograph their games. Once the parents find the photos online the wallets open and they put away the cameras and go back to the stands.

just my thoughts about parents, Randy

[Luis Caffesse]

The workflow is brilliant and simple.

Editing R3D files is going to be the standard, the rule. RAW will become the default technology for still and motion capture and automation will bring it to the "masses". The impact of this technology is going to be huge.

I love reading these kinds of comments from you, Jon.
:thumbsup:


And I can't help but notice you said the workflow is brilliant and simple... not 'will be.'

Very encouraging.
:)

[kmikami]

I'm a consumer. I don't shoot for money, I shoot for the love of the sport. Look up the root derivative for "amateur". We participate for the "love" of the exercise.

At least you can admit that though Jon. The problem is there are a lot of wannabes here who can't admit that they are amateurs. The term "soccer mom" hits a little too close to home. That segment of the market (and I think it's a big one) wants to feel like they're buying a purely "pro" camera and they rankle at any suggestion of the words "prosumer" or "consumer." They need to have the feeling that they're using the same thing as the big boys before they can feel confident to go off and shoot blurry footage of the flowers in their backyard. :tt2:

[David S.]

Editing R3D files is going to be the standard, the rule. RAW will become the default technology for still and motion capture and automation will bring it to the "masses". The impact of this technology is going to be huge.

I doubt this assertion very much.

How many RED Ones have shipped? Less than 2K?

And the Scarlet is a mostly undefined cam a year away.

[scigoat]

The guys at red should consider renaming scarlet to "The Soccer Mom"

[Luis Caffesse]

And the Scarlet is a mostly undefined cam a year away.

Well, publicly undefined anyhow.
That doesn't mean RED doesn't have some very specific ideas on what they plan on doing,
both with the Scarlet and the workflow that will accompany it.

[Isaac Brody]

We really need to create Scarlet t-shirts. I want my t-shirt with a hot soccer mom holding a scarlet camera, in the style of those fifties pinup cartoon posters.

Acehole, can you hook us up? :)

[Jason Ramsey]

Scarletuser t-shirts are in planning :)

Later,
Jason

[Luis Caffesse]

We really need to create Scarlet t-shirts. I want my t-shirt with a hot soccer mom holding a scarlet camera, in the style of those fifties pinup cartoon posters.

Count me in.
:thumbsup:

[Barry Green]

Surely the resistance to the "soccer mom" concept is borne from the idea that the camera will somehow be compromised in order to appeal to the consumer demographic.

What I'm hoping for (and have no real basis for this, but HOPING) is that Red's figuring that this thing will be so good and so irresistible, that even soccer moms will want to buy one. And that Red isn't going to turn down any sales, no matter where they come from.

Those are two very different concepts though. Frankly, I have no problem whatsoever with James Longley shooting two Academy-award-nominated films on a DVX100, and knowing that MTV and Turner and sooo many broadcast shows use the DVX100, and *simultaneously* that there's tens of thousands of wedding shooters and wannabes using DVX100s. It doesn't diminish Longley's accomplishment at all.

So, as long as Scarlet delivers what the professionals demand, who *cares* whether soccer moms adopt it?

The very real other possibility would be that somehow Red is *targeting* the camera towards the soccer mom, at the expense of the professional. If that were to happen, that would be a very, very, very, very disappointing development indeed for most (if not all) of those of us planning on using Scarlets in a professional capacity.

From the way Red introduced the Scarlet in their NAB brochure, I'm hopeful and confident that they're designing a Professional Pocket Digital Cinema camera. And if the soccer moms want to buy it, well, more power to 'em, but it's designed for the professional.

[Jason Ramsey]

To use the phrasing that you often like to quote, Barry: It's a Professional Digital Cinema Camera at its core.

It'll have auto functions for those who aren't using it for "professional" applications, but I highly doubt that they would limit the professional feature set of Scarlet as a tradeoff. Just accommodate those that will buy this thing for other uses as well. Versatility is something Big Jon has said a lot.

The DVX and HVX have auto functions as well. We don't use them, and most people that own the cameras don't. But, Scarlet is an attractive price point, and a smaller form factor, and I don't see that there need be any sacrifice of feature set to accommodate the shooter that will not be using it for professional applications....

I don't agree with the notion that it's a "very real possibility" that scarlet will target soccer moms at the expense of the the professional. But, time will tell, I guess.

Later,
Jason

[MattN]

The auto functions are there for when that UFO crashes across the street in the middle of the night and you don't have time for anything else.

[Barry Green]

I don't agree with the notion that it's a "very real possibility" that scarlet will target soccer moms at the expense of the the professional
Well, I mean, it's a possibility that I would dread, as I think most everyone else who's currently excited about Scarlet would dread. I guess I should have said "there's an outside possibility"...

I think what we're witnessing here is an example of Red not wanting to turn off any potential customers. I mean, look -- the Red One is not designed for broadcast, and anyone wanting to use it for broadcast is using the wrong tool for the job. But I don't think I've ever heard Red say "the Red One is not for broadcast use." So I'm hoping what we're seeing here is the same thing: they're making the product for professional use, understanding very clearly who their market is, and just using marketingspeak to keep the door open to other potential users who might want to use it.

THIS is how Red presents themselves; this is what the cover of the NAB brochure (that introduced Scarlet) looks like:
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/31/1210798826.jpg

That doesn't say "Soccer Moms", that twice says "Digital Cinema".

So, unless I just can't read, I think any hint of "Soccer Moms" is strictly a concession that the price of the unit will be within reach of the average consumer. But the DESIGN of the unit is aimed towards professional digital cinema shooters.

(prices, features, dates subject to change, of course)

[Luis Caffesse]

You've got to wonder if the 'leader of the rebellion' is regretting making that 'soccer mom' comment now.


People really locked onto that one.
:)



(totally agree with what Barry is saying above, by the way)

[androbot2084]

I think the Scarlet will be an excellent camera for the Soccer Mom. The problem with consumer 1080i interlaced HD camcorders is that they do not handle fast motion very well. The Scarlet with its 60p and 120p shooting modes will do an excellent job of capturing motion along with excellent slow motion playback. For consumers the 720p format with its 60 frames per second capture promised to be the ideal camera for the Soccer Mom but ironically the 720p format while good enough for ESPN World Cup Soccer was not good enough for consumer use because too many salesman will tell the Soccer Mom that only 1080i is full high definition and will basically refuse to sell any cameras that support the 720p format. Red solves this objection because it not only exceeds full high definition specification it also offers full progressive shooting at unprecedented frame rates.

[David S.]

Sounds great

Can't wait to see how those soccer moms handle color correction with RED Raw footage.

[Jaime Valles]

Scarlet is hot.

Soccer moms are hot.

Shooting soccer moms with Scarlet will be hot. :drool5:

[Jared Caldwell]

Check this out:
http://senorsexypants.googlepages.com/soccor1.jpg

[Jared Caldwell]

And then I realize that I left out the "d" in and...

That's what you get when you are in a hurry!


Since this is my 37th post, I must say, "In a row?"

[Jared Caldwell]

Now fixed!

[Vincentrice]

The soccer moms line was a throw-away to try and express the width of target market. People should really try and get over it.

[David S.]

People should try and not use it.

[androbot2084]

The consumer sports camcorder market has been largely ignored by the major companies who have introduced obsolete 1080i cameras based on analog interlace scanning that cannot capture fast action or have introduced progressive scan 1080p formats that max out at 30 frames per second making these cameras also useless for capturing fast action. Red Scarlet will be the first camera that can capture fast action as well as fine detail.

[John Caballero]

Forget soccer moms and dads, if the Scarlet is going to be the camera it has been announce to be, I want it for one person only, and that’s ME. We can’t worry about who else is going to buy it; you buy it for yourself if it suits your needs. I am pretty sure there must be some parents shooting their kids with HVX 200s or EX1s, and who cares? If you want to be way above them you save your pennies and go for the Red One.

[David S.]

The consumer sports camcorder market has been largely ignored by the major companies who have introduced obsolete 1080i cameras based on analog interlace scanning that cannot capture fast action or have introduced progressive scan 1080p formats that max out at 30 frames per second making these cameras also useless for capturing fast action. Red Scarlet will be the first camera that can capture fast action as well as fine detail.

Which "major companies?"

Which obsolete 1080i camera based on an "analog interface?" With what codec, CMOS or CDD or what size chips?

Which consumer cams shoot 1080p? What frame rate for what delivery?

Why is the Scarlet, which is just a prototype and a year away, the first camera "that can capture fast action as well as fine detail?"

With all due respect, posts such as this bring into play the whole "fanboy" discussion.

[Barry Green]

Three of the four majors now make 720/60p camcorders; only Canon has stuck exclusively with 1080. And Aiptek even has 1080p down below a $200 price point, but admittedly that only does go to 30P.

[androbot2084]

The problem with consumer 720p camcorders is that they always get bad reviews. camcorderinfo.com did a review on the Samsung 720p camcorder and admitted that it produced a sharper picture ( by reducing motion blurring) for sports than the Canon HV20 yet they STILL gave the camera a bad review because it lacked the resolution of full high definition 1080p. And it is a known fact that the biggest complaint from consumers about HDTV is not the barely noticable difference in fine detail between 720p and 1080p but rather the biggest complain is motion blurring. The 720p format with its 60 frames per second capture all but eliminates motion blurring even in an LCD television yet there seems to be a consensus even among Consumers Union that 720p is an inferior aquisition format all because it has a lower number than 1080.

Of course for the prosumer market it will be a different story because 3 major networks support the 720p format and even some 1080i networks broadcast their local news in 720p because 720p has better picture quality.

But the poor consumer entering a major electronics store is going to be told that only 1080 is real high definition simply because a salesman can get a bigger commision from a 1080p television. So its all a numbers game and if you want to survive in the business you have to deliver big numbers. So if Jim can deliver a camera that can shoot 3000 x 1500p at 120 frames per second its those big numbers that will sell his camera.

[Barry Green]

It's an old debate though, and largely irrelevant on this board. Scarlet's going to shoot 60P, no interlacing ever. In fact, Scarlet's supposed to support 120P and even 180P in burst mode.

[hawaj]

I dont care who will use it, its just simlpy amazing that this camera will be here for everybody. Just "show me your footage" and then I maybe ask you what was it shoot on and how.

This camera is made for shooting and not to make you to be part of some exclusive club or what. Thats so ridiculous.

[Mister Stocks]

To Jared Caldwell,

I want that image on a shirt, a cup, a coffee mug, a hat, some pants, ....

I think the soccer mom thing would be a great marketing device. I have confidence that the scarlet will be an amazing professional camera, and I'm not insecure about your average consumer owning the camera.

[Dances With Cameras]

Yeah, the very nature of RED and especially of Scarlet is to be non-exclusive and available to everyone.

[David S.]

Not to be contentious, but are just about all cams "non exclusive" and "available to everyone?"

So long as you have the dinero.

:)

[Jared Caldwell]

To Jared Caldwell,

I want that image on a shirt, a cup, a coffee mug, a hat, some pants, ....

I think the soccer mom thing would be a great marketing device. I have confidence that the scarlet will be an amazing professional camera, and I'm not insecure about your average consumer owning the camera.

LOL.

I guess I can put it on some stuff (like shirts, etc.) on cafe press or something like that. If anyone really wants a shirt, I can fix it up a bit. That image took me like 15 min, so I can tweak that a bit. :D

[jbscpa]

I am the definition of a "soccer dad".

I am an enthusiast that still has to live on a budget when it comes to my hobbies.

I bought my Canon GL2 several years ago when the package cost $2,400 from Zotz Digital.

To upgrade to 3K for $3,000 and get to by pass capturing to computer from DV tape would be worth it for no other reason. But I also get footage worthy of an good HDTV that my kids will watch with their kids 25 years from now.

In the digital still world there was so much controversy and hand wringing about RAW conversion for the several years. There still is and will continue to be. But the software has made it easier and easier. (See Capture NX2)

In the video world RAW conversion issues will be worse.

But the quality WILL eventually make it worhwhile. Ease of use will come as more and more users adobt 3K. Just like it did with RAW in the digital still world.

I am already saving up for Scarlet.

[Cedric_Akins]

I am the definition of a "soccer dad".

I am an enthusiast that still has to live on a budget when it comes to my hobbies.

I bought my Canon GL2 several years ago when the package cost $2,400 from Zotz Digital.

To upgrade to 3K for $3,000 and get to by pass capturing to computer from DV tape would be worth it for no other reason. But I also get footage worthy of an good HDTV that my kids will watch with their kids 25 years from now.

In the digital still world there was so much controversy and hand wringing about RAW conversion for the several years. There still is and will continue to be. But the software has made it easier and easier. (See Capture NX2)

In the video world RAW conversion issues will be worse.

But the quality WILL eventually make it worhwhile. Ease of use will come as more and more users adobt 3K. Just like it did with RAW in the digital still world.

I am already saving up for Scarlet.
It is great to have you on board the forum. The camera should be easy to operate in full auto or manual modes. Hopefully we will get an opportunity to view images from the actual prototype in the next 2-5 months.

[geoffreyEUGENEivie]

Scarlet is for the middle-class millionaire.
One is for the billionaire.
Epic is for the Saudi Prince.

[Ameer Azari]

Scarlet is for the middle-class millionaire.
One is for the billionaire.
Epic is for the Saudi Prince.


Ummm...I lived in Saudi Arabia for 10 years...and my name means Prince in Arabic...

Do I count?

If so...Jim should make me a billionare...or give me an Epic...

*DON'T QUESTION MY REASONING!*

[Peter Majtan]

Scarlet is for the middle-class millionaire.
One is for the billionaire.
Epic is for the Saudi Prince.

Just add "-to-be" and it sounds lot better:

Scarlet is for the middle-class millionaire-to-be...
One is for the billionaire-to-be...
Epic is for the Saudi Prince-to-be...

:D

[Learvis]

So Peter how is your Scarlet workflow coming along? (Trying to get this thread back on track and cut down on the noise:shocked:)

[Peter Majtan]

So Peter how is your Scarlet workflow coming along? (Trying to get this thread back on track and cut down on the noise:shocked:)

Post the things You would like to discuss (such as storage, compositing SW, backup, etc... - You get the idea) in this thread please:

http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=461

:D