Dedolights

[Yannick Hagman]

As the birdcage hasn't been used in this shot I'll open a dedolight thread. Apart from the theater-par outside this photograph was entirely lit with the two dedos you spot.

http://g.virbcdn.com/cdnImages/noResize/Image-88952-1335446-Benzinkanister_20080714_0275_1280.png

http://g.virbcdn.com/cdnImages/resize_510x1500/Image-88952-1335446-Benzinkanister_20080714_0275_1280.png

1/20s, f5,6, ISO 800

If anyone knows how I could prevent this ugly grain with my old Canon 10D I'll buy him/her a beer if he/she ever makes it to Switzerland.

[Peter Majtan]

Well - for starters - the ISO-800 is to blame. Adding a soft fill would allow You to go down to 250, or lover. If this is only about still - You can use longer exposure with lower ISO to the same effect. I personally don't like the hot spot on the bunny - feels staged, unnatural... Otherwise great light!

PS: You can always say You shot it on film... :D

[Yannick Hagman]

It was difficult to get it sharp with ISO 400 (don't have the best lenses).
This is staged. :)

[Peter Majtan]

Of course it is - if You still have it up - take one shot without the bunny hot spot. You will see what I mean... :D

[Yannick Hagman]

Haven't. But everything in photographic art is staged. There is plenty photography and film around that looks staged. I don't like most dogmafilms. :)

[Peter Majtan]

Yannick - I am not trying to put You down and I apologize if it came across like that. Of course all set lights are staged. But it is the ones that make things look natural, that improve the appeal of the photo. I am not a big fan of "in-Your-face" lighting...

[Yannick Hagman]

I think it depends on it's intention. A photo hasn't to be a commercial. Especially for art, where the content or message is more important you like to lead the viewer. If you look at Gregory Crewdsons photos for instance they are staged as hell. Or on American Beauty in film, which is anything else than natural.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

I see what you mean Yannick.
But a little more soft won't hurt you!

I think it was a tad too much in there.
Maybe a little more diffuse, facing downwards...
If it's too much for us who deal with this, it'll be a little to people who don't understand about it. IMO

[Yannick Hagman]

Yes, it eats a bit out. That's true.

[Yannick Hagman]

"If someone said "I'm getting too much grain in the 500T emulsion I'm using" -- my response would be: (1) overexpose the stock more, or (2) use a slower-speed stock, or (3) use a bigger negative format.

There's no free lunch -- too little exposure produces grain on film or noise in digital. If you are getting too much noise in the shadows, you need more exposure in the shadows. More exposure gives you the flexibility of darkening the image in post without getting more noise, whereas too little exposure not only puts more shadow detail in the noise floor, but any color-correcting in post that plays around with the shadows, particularly any attempt to lighten them, only brings up the noise.

The only reason that 3200K is noisier than 5600K is that when your lighting is warmer in color, you are basically underexposing the blue channel more and more, which is why it gets noisier when you attempt to correct that low color temperature light to "white" by pushing the underexposed blue channel.

David Mullen"

[Peter Majtan]

Looks like You have found answer to Your question... David rocks!

:D

[Yannick Hagman]

David knows everything. :) This with the blue channel and thungsten is very interesting.
Maybe the canon sensor also made some improvements up from the 10D I still use.

[Dances With Cameras]

Exposure is the key (art).

I think we really need to think hard about that 2xScarlet HDR rig.

I'm inspired...

[neptune13]

lighting those shadows and then stopping down works for eliminating grain. In the dark shadowy films I've worked on, when your on the set those shadows are lit, but the other subject areas are lit a little hotter, then, the DP dials down 1 or 2 f-stops. and that will basically work in most situations.

[Yannick Hagman]

What is the difference? I understand that you get more detail if you push the black level in post, but why should there be more detail/less grain if you dial down f-stops?

[Peter Majtan]

Because there is more light hitting the shadows - and that is what You need to get rid off the grain... :D

[Yannick Hagman]

But If I shut the aperture down less light receives the sensor. Comparable with starting with low light. Not? I don't get difference.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

But If I shut the aperture down less light receives the sensor. Comparable with starting with low light. Not? I don't get difference?

Same question...

[fde101]

Yeah, anyway.

That shouldn't be dialed out at the camera, it should be done in post...

Duh!


Of course, with the RED, you could dial it out "artificially" by reducing the ISO/ASA setting after setting exposure correctly at a more optimal level, leaving it there...

[Luke Stewart]

"If someone said "I'm getting too much grain in the 500T emulsion I'm using" -- my response would be: (1) overexpose the stock more, or (2) use a slower-speed stock, or (3) use a bigger negative format.

There's no free lunch -- too little exposure produces grain on film or noise in digital. If you are getting too much noise in the shadows, you need more exposure in the shadows. More exposure gives you the flexibility of darkening the image in post without getting more noise, whereas too little exposure not only puts more shadow detail in the noise floor, but any color-correcting in post that plays around with the shadows, particularly any attempt to lighten them, only brings up the noise.

The only reason that 3200K is noisier than 5600K is that when your lighting is warmer in color, you are basically underexposing the blue channel more and more, which is why it gets noisier when you attempt to correct that low color temperature light to "white" by pushing the underexposed blue channel.

David Mullen"

Wow, I just learned something important- awesome! Makes total sense now.

As for the bunny :D I think if this were a frame from a movie, the bunny would be a non issue. Movement always trumps stationary things as far as the audience's eyeballs are concerned.

[Yannick Hagman]

http://g.virbcdn.com/cdnImages/noResize/Image-88952-1341433-series3_1280.png

Just finished post of my last and third image of this little "If you have nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire series". Now on ISO 400.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Now that's beautiful.

Do you know when something is good? Whe someone who doesn't have a clue about this stuff looks and say: "Cool".

And that's what my mom just did.

:)

[Yannick Hagman]

Hehe, flowers to your mom. It's much appreciated.

[Dances With Cameras]

Now that's beautiful.

Do you know when something is good? Whe someone who doesn't have a clue about this stuff looks and say: "Cool".

And that's what my mom just did.

:)


You just put all film critics out of job... :bath:

***

It is nice. Now you have two proven test-subjects, Yannick. :thumbsup:

[Stefan Christou]

"The only reason that 3200K is noisier than 5600K is that when your lighting is warmer in color, you are basically underexposing the blue channel more and more, which is why it gets noisier when you attempt to correct that low color temperature light to "white" by pushing the underexposed blue channel.

David Mullen"

So digital has an innate white balance just like film, but we use the camera's software to alter that as we go (unless using raw when we measure it for finalizing in post).

So from the quote I assume that most digital sensors are balanced for daylight, does anyone know what the exact innate white balance is on most sensors or for Mysterium and (Jim forgive me for being so presumptuous) what will the innate white balance of Mysterium X be?

Yannick, amazing shot BTW. Amazing

[Peter Majtan]

DefStef, Jim has specified that current Mysterium is daylight-balanced sensor with optimal sensitivity of ISO-320. I expect Mysterium X follow in this path (with a maybe little different ISO), otherwise it will be very difficult to do simultaneous shoot between Red One and Epic, or upgraded Red One... :D

[Yannick Hagman]

So digital has an innate white balance just like film, but we use the camera's software to alter that as we go (unless using raw when we measure it for finalizing in post).

So from the quote I assume that most digital sensors are balanced for daylight, does anyone know what the exact innate white balance is on most sensors or for Mysterium and (Jim forgive me for being so presumptuous) what will the innate white balance of Mysterium X be?

Yes, the Red One is daylight balanced. So probably 5400k or anything around this number.

Thanks a lot. Shot it RAW, brought the temperature down to around 2850k and did some color correction on the colored bulbs.

[Stefan Christou]

Thanks that's really helpful

[JPSendall]

That doll looks almost like a real little girl. Kind of spooky. But comparing the two shots I notice that even though my eyes were directly attracted to the doll her backlight giving her that nice glowing edge didn't seem out of place even though one cannot understand the source of it. Whereas the bunny drew my immediate attention and my instant thought was where was the light coming from? It didn't seem to make sense. And I think that's the point. Often DP's can put a light in that has no logical source other than an off camera light but they hide the fact well. It sits in the drama of the shot without fighting the other elements (as in your doll backlight which is very nicely done).

I saw In The Valley Of Elah the other night and there was this scene where a soldier comes to tell Tommy Lee Jones, an ex soldier himself, some bad news about his AWOL son. Lee Jones is staying in a motel. He goes to the bathroom for a moment before the soldier has a chance to speak. When he comes back the soldier has stepped into the room and holds a salute. He is in dress uniform BUT the door behind him throws the soldier into sihouette, no detail in the face at all. Foreshadowing the bad news to come or what! Now actually in real life the naked eye wouldn't see it that way, our eyes would probably adjust and we would see the soldiers face (actually in the next shot as they talk you can as it is a little lighter). Here are the two shots and most people would say these wouldn't cut together well but they worked beautifully. As I said the drama dictating the shot and lighting. Forgive me if it sounds like teaching the sucking of lighting eggs to Scarlet grandma's.

[JPSendall]

Course now I look at the doll shot again I realise the backlight to the doll is of course one of the bulbs -duh! But it didn't look like it at first.

[Yannick Hagman]

Thank you for your inputs, JPSendall.

[Yannick Hagman]

A behind the shot from my upcoming photo.

[Stefan Christou]

Can't wait to see it

[Yannick Hagman]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3228/2842821621_5b3312d551_o.jpg

Garden at midnight
f3,5, 20mm, 1/8s, Canon EOS D10

[Stefan Christou]

nice :thumbsup:

[Yannick Hagman]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3134/2876986444_30ae3928b2_o.jpg

Fabian
Copyright 2008 by Yannick Hagman

[Peter Majtan]

Yannick - is that a SWISS-AIR aircraft food-cart? :devil:
Nice shots, as always... :D

[Yannick Hagman]

It is a luggage cart. (-:

[Yannick Hagman]

Peter, you don't know if it's possible to have a nice zebra pattern on my 10D? Didn't found anything in my manual, but can it really be that Canon didn't integrate this function into their older models? It's often hard to eyeball clipping highlights with human eyes. (o:

[Peter Majtan]

10D has no zebra - sorry...
Try switching Your histogram to Luma - that should hel... :D

[Yannick Hagman]

Damn. I need a real camera someday. :)

[David Rasberry]

Zebras can be misleading. Histogram is better. Incident light meter better still.

Love the Fabian shot. I think of photography as painting with light, and you do it well.

[Yannick Hagman]

Spot light meters?

Thanks a lot. I spend much of my sparetime at the local library watching paintings of Edward Hopper and many others in artbooks. But Hopper amazes me the most if it comes to lighting.

[David Rasberry]

An incident meter measures the light source, not what it is bouncing off of. On a 10 zone scale from black to brightest highlight, an incident meter will give a Zone 5 reading, equivalent to a spot meter on an 18% gray card. Do a search on Ansel Adams zone photography method and you will get an idea of where I'm coming from.

Hopper does make very striking use of light and shadow to create form.

[Yannick Hagman]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3036/2947202065_0bfe0f2e3d_o.jpg

Joe Avery and the bug
2008 by Yannick Hagman

Birdcage and all 3 dedos.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Nice one again!

Greenish light inside the car is the birdcage?!

[Peter Majtan]

Yannick - good one again, but I would personally suggest You start playing with one thing:

Diffusors...

I think the lighting is little harsh and too contrasty. You are going beyond the reach of the camera's DR. This might very well be the style You are creating - and if so - just ignore what I have said. Otherwise I would suggest little softer...

Keep up the great work!

:D Peter

[Yannick Hagman]

Impagliazzo
Nope, it's the tinted car window, but the birdcage is behind the car under the vievpoint of the camera. I shifted color temperature to make it colder and more melancholic.

Peter
The birdcage is diffused and the dedolight inside the car on the right side has a tough frost on it. I don't have any more diffusions at the moment. I think contrastyness works great on this one. The only thing that bothers me is DR on my face. Although it's almost only solvable through a led (the car interiors are too small if I would have another lamp in there - or a reflector).

But I guess with a newer camera this would be better.

Cheers,
Yannick

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Where's the birdcage Yannick? Couldn't understand...

Sorry.

[Yannick Hagman]

On the other side of the car a bit right of the blueish part, iluminating the inside of the car and the ceiling. One dedo is left out of the screen to iluminate the bug, one inside the car for the left part of the face and another one on the backseat over my shoulder with tough frost.

[fde101]

Damn. I need a real camera someday. :)

You seem to be doing quite well with the one you have...

[Yannick Hagman]

I should learn to use a lightmeter instead of eyeballing once mate. :)

[Yannick Hagman]

I made a small plan about how I lit it. Hope that helps. Cheers.

[dingos8mybaby]

Nice shots mate. I like that the angles of the light shafts simulate what would be seen if there had been streetlights overhead.

What I like about Dedos is that they are pretty versatile - lightweight, small, and can be fitted with almost any accessory you can creatively (and safely!) come up with. One of my favourite small-space (read: CHEAP!) set-ups is stacking two or three dedos near each other, having one in spotlight, and one or two in flood. Add some gels and you've got a pretty nice accent to practicals.

[Yannick Hagman]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/2995756095_995c58695f_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3162/2996806082_d2367c4ae5_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3015/2996185177_9e06c274f8_o.jpg

[Stefan Christou]

Nice shots as usual. I like the last one best. The shape of cheek and jaw on mask are very well defined. And the shadow from the subject's nose helps define his muzzle. I also like the slightly awkward foot position of his left leg (out right). Also the shadows from the ¿Aloe Vera? extenuate the rolls in his jacket.

[OUinLA]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3134/2876986444_30ae3928b2_o.jpg

Fabian
Copyright 2008 by Yannick Hagman

As far as lighting goes, this is my favorite one so far. Nice work

[OUinLA]

I will say that I agree with Peter about diffusion. If you look at the bowl of apples, the 3 shadows are quite noticeable. C stands and some good paper and you are in business my friend.

[neptune13]

Yes the repost in 57 that one is a mood setter and we know its staged but it doesn't look staged. Nice work Yannick.

[Yannick Hagman]

That´s true. Sometimes it´s difficult to get rid of them, even with diffusion as dedos have much punch and it sometimes would kill the other lighting. What´s your choice for diffusing dedolights QUinLA? Place was another problem on this one. It was the kitchen of him. Very tight.

Will upload another photograph tonight. And a behind the scenes shot.