Poll: Relay adapter

[Kyle Presley]

I have a design for a Relay adapter made specifically for the Scarlet 2/3" Cinema. Who would be interested in buying, and how much would you pay? It would be FF format with about a stop of light loss, which shouldn't matter much if sensitivity is at least as good as the R1. I haven't decided on a vibrating, spinning or static version, but I could do any. If it were static, I have some ideas about making an extremely fine grain screen.

[Granty]

For me somewhere over the 2/3" and below the S35 would have the perfect DoF range for my own methods. Most of my scripting tends to translate to night time so shooting would tend to be wide open most of the time, or a little closed from that, so even 1-stop of light loss is a no-no for me. While I ain't a big fan of ultra shallow DoF, it is occasionally needed, but I don't know if I would consider a relay or a quick hire of a FF35 and lenses for the odd shot, I'm guessing the hire market will get flooded quickly and many a bargain will be there to be had. I also don't like the extra size of a relay, it takes a tight handheld setup and turns it into a monster of static rig.

So I didn't vote on my own practical needs, but I can still see the demand for such a setup from others, and I imagine many would pay around $1000 for such a relay if your planned quality holds up, and I'm sure it will. If you can fit it onto a practical handheld setup, I'm sure $1000 for a relay and $2000 on Nikon primes will work out cheaper than getting a nice set of C-mount, or some other mount.

So the best of luck with your plans, and if you can work on getting that light loss down a touch I may even reconsider once I see that baby working!

[Jaime Valles]

Question: Is it a relay lens that you then add a DoF adapter (Brevis, Letus, etc.) in front of? Or is it an entire DoF adapter you're designing, which includes the relay lens? In the poll I accidentally voted for the $500-$750 price, but if it's a complete adapter/relay lens combo, then a $1000 price seems justified.

If indeed it is a complete adapter/relay lens solution, then I'd actually vote for a static adapter with an ultra-fine screen. It would be the least expensive option, with the fewest question marks regarding quality and durability. Later on you can expand on that design and add a vibrating element, if desired.

The price would have to be right, seeing as the S35 Scarlet brain is $7000. For it to be worth it (for me, at least) the total cost should be something like:

2/3" Scarlet brain - $2500
*Kyle35* DoF adapter & relay lens - $1000
TOTAL= $3500 (or roughly half of the S35 Scarlet)

Keep us up-to-date with the progress, as it does seem like an intriguing option!

[Yannick Hagman]

Flip or non-flip. I guess it will be hard to release anything non-flip after scarlet is finished.

[Kyle Presley]

It would be a full relay WITH 35mm adapter. It would be about the same size as a normal 35mm adapter, perhaps even shorter. It would be non flip in anticipation of the ability to flip it in camera. Hopefully this will be an option, if not it would be easy to implement through a firmware update.

[Theta]

It would be an...indulgence for me, but I'd be willing to buy a FF35 adapter for specialty film work.

[David Rasberry]

2/3" DOF is just fine with me. Rather use good quality 16mm cine lenses.

[Jaime Valles]

It would be a full relay WITH 35mm adapter. It would be about the same size as a normal 35mm adapter, perhaps even shorter. It would be non flip in anticipation of the ability to flip it in camera. Hopefully this will be an option, if not it would be easy to implement through a firmware update.
Yeah, don't bother with adding the flip to the adapter, as this usually results in even more light loss. It's easy enough to use an upside-down LCD while shooting, and then flipping the footage in post.

[Granty]

It would be a full relay WITH 35mm adapter. It would be about the same size as a normal 35mm adapter, perhaps even shorter. It would be non flip in anticipation of the ability to flip it in camera. Hopefully this will be an option, if not it would be easy to implement through a firmware update.

That sounds sweet, if you can get the size that low I'd look at owning one of these.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

I'd only buy it dead cheap...

Otherwise I rather invest in good low f-stop lenses.

[DrewIGR]

My issue would be the degredation of the image at these resolutions. Even 3k to 2k output will more than likely have visible grain with an adapter regardless of the screen used. This can be a cool look if you want the footage to be a little gritty. On the other hand there is a lot more glass for DOF adapters than there will be in a decent price range for a 2/3" scarlet. Not to mention you can get a canon mount for your 2/3" scarlet and get some great DOF, but you will have to deal with a highly cropped image.

Also, Lets not forget how much more impressive the DOF will be on a 2/3rd" sensor than the 1/3 sensors most of us are used to shooting on.

I guess it wouldn't be bad to have a good option for a scarlet adapter but it really depends on what you want. If the price is right you could easily fit your scarlet with all of these options for less than the S35 model.

I'm not sure I even actually said anything here, but I opted for the S35 model on top because it is still very affordable for what it can do especially vs ex1/ex3 price points. I have already accepted that I won't be eating for the remainder of the year. :-)

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Also, Lets not forget how much more impressive the DOF will be on a 2/3rd" sensor than the 1/3 sensors most of us are used to shooting on.

LOL

I'm shooting 1/4"...

:bath:

[hawaj]

You will get light loss, image degradation - remember there is huge difference between HD and 3K resolution, noise from motor, bigger and more heavier setup, maybe some optical artefacts on the flares etc....
So why another franken-adapter when there will be afordable prime/zoom lenses for 2/3" scarlet?

[Kyle Presley]

options. And besides, I know a little bit about optics. This is something I know I can do and is a proprietary and slick design.

[hawaj]

What grit grade of GG you want to use? Or you will use compressed fibers?

[Kyle Presley]

Neither...

[holy_handgrenade]

Well, for me I dont think I'm even remotely interested in an adapter. I'd prefer to work with the existing limitations than jump through hurdles to achieve a limitation. But that's just me.

Good luck, I'm interested to see what you come up with.

[Luke Stewart]

Kyle, I say you go for it. I think there will be a market out there. Personally, I don't plan on buying one, mainly because I don't have any glass already. But I would seriously look at flipping the image if at all possible. Don't expect RED to cater to adapter makers with a firmware update, I wouldn't if I were them.

[Yannick Hagman]

Would rather go fixed lens I assume.
You probably won't be able to judge focus with an adapter and the scarlet monitor anyway.

[David Rasberry]

Would rather go fixed lens I assume.
You probably won't be able to judge focus with an adapter and the scarlet monitor anyway.

That is not the case. The Red display modes have very good focus assist options. Focus is easier than any optical reflex viewfinder I have used, especially in low light conditions.

[hawaj]

ok Kyle go for it, final picture will speak for itself

[Max Link]

I haven't the time right now to read through the entire thread, but it seems like I'm the first one to vote for anything but the cheapest version... :shocked:

Actually, a quality design would be worth a good $1000 to me, but I just estimated what I'd roughly have left once I've kitted out a 2/3" Scarlet for myself. I also voted for the lower price tag because any DOF adapting solution would be purely a bonus for me, since I'd rarely use it instead of the 2/3" kit, mostly to be able to experiment with my beloved vintage lenses. :)

I've already thought how beautyfully you could make such a system work with Scarlet, however, especially if you mounted the whole relay/DOFA drirectly to the camera, as a replacement for the normal lens mount - attaching a dust-sealed box right in front of the brain rather than having the extra vulnerability of a lens mount inbetween might even make this sturdy and compact enough for shoulder work... :happyhappy:

So, I hope we'll hear a lot more about your project soon after Scarlet starts shipping!

[Jared Caldwell]

Kyle, go for it, bro! I personally think the strength in the relay isn't 35mm DOF, rather, the ability to use high quality glass for your scarlet for much cheaper (in the way of still glass).

[David Rasberry]

Kyle, go for it, bro! I personally think the strength in the relay isn't 35mm DOF, rather, the ability to use high quality glass for your scarlet for much cheaper (in the way of still glass).

High quality still glass is not cheap. The cheap stuff is not HQ. One good used premium quality 16mm zoom for about the same price as the adapter and you have most of what you need for focal lengths at speeds and resolutions cheap still lenses can't match. Only need the extra wide angles at the short end.

[Kyle Presley]

The adapter would probably be best for folks who already have the lenses and want to use them without a crop.

[Jared Caldwell]

What about still glass, David? This is what I was referring to...

[dmpsk8]

Tough call. It might come down to the dof of the fixed lens. In that price range, we might be happy with just a slightly shallower dof than the ex/hpx/etc. I'm kinda looking forward to getting away from the hassle of adapters(I'm sure others agree). I really only make use of them 40% percent of the time, might be okay fighting with the cropped 2/3".

cost & simplicity will make it or break it. I'm on the fence.

[caliboss]

Kyle, please are you going to place the DOFA directly on the face of the adapter? That would be it, the scarlet will be an improvement of the R1 and so will have better light sensitivity, flip? ''Forgeta- bout-it '' but if it is going to be like the orther models of DOFA's that attatch to fixed lens's, then its a bit worrying as we will be facing the same limitations with as with known and existing DOFA/CAMCORDER setups.

[Chris.]

flip? ''Forgeta- bout-it '' but if it is going to be like the orther models of DOFA's that attatch to fixed lens's, then its a bit worrying as we will be facing the same limitations with as with known and existing DOFA/CAMCORDER setups.

While I'm not that interested in buying an adaptor for the fixed lens Scarlet I'm getting anyway, I did vote for the lowest cost option you listed. Though if I had the $$$ I'd rather upgrade to a higher end Scarlet than compromise the image through an adaptor.

I was thinking there would be less limitation with the flip issue on a Scarlet than other camcorders simply because in a modular design you can physically flip all your controls and specifically the monitor to compensate.

[Kyle Presley]

I see that a lot of people have posted they would rather buy an s35 or ff35 Scarlet. There is quite a leap from $2500 to $7000 or nearly $10,000. This product would only fill that gap for people who won't be able to afford the more expensive models.

[Chris.]

I see that a lot of people have posted they would rather buy an s35 or ff35 Scarlet. There is quite a leap from $2500 to $7000 or nearly $10,000. This product would only fill that gap for people who won't be able to afford the more expensive models.

$2500 + the cost of the adaptor.

The way I look at it is if I at a place where I will absolutely "require" the use of 35mm lenses for a production then I am probably going to put the extra effort into rounding up a few thousand $$$ for a higher-end Scarlet (and then enjoying the added image quality and resolution it brings) then spending a lot of extra effort on shoots trying to reduce the loss in image quality just to gain some DOF when using an adaptor, and then spending even more time in post flipping the orientation of all my footage.

But until that time comes I think I will make very good use of the fixed lens Scarlet and the killer built-in zoom lens Jim has promised is coming with it. :)

[David Rasberry]

$2500 + the cost of the adaptor.

The way I look at it is if I at a place where I will absolutely "require" the use of 35mm lenses for a production then I am probably going to put the extra effort into rounding up a few thousand $$$ for a higher-end Scarlet (and then enjoying the added image quality and resolution it brings) then spending a lot of extra effort on shoots trying to reduce the loss in image quality just to gain some DOF when using an adaptor, and then spending even more time in post flipping the orientation of all my footage.

But until that time comes I think I will make very good use of the fixed lens Scarlet and the killer built-in zoom lens Jim has promised is coming with it. :)

Well the nice thing about a modular camera body like Scarlet is you can just mount it to the rails upside down on the DOF adapter. No need to flip the image in post and you can mount your LCD or EVF wherever you want it and shoot like normal. :)

Personally I think 2/3" has decent DOF characteristics as is and you would be better off spending the money on other accessories.

[DrewIGR]

Personally I think 2/3" has decent DOF characteristics as is and you would be better off spending the money on other accessories.

I agree with you. If you absolutely NEED 35mm DOF then save up your pennies for S35 or FF35, but the in cam DOF with the fixed lens 2/3 should look pretty damn good compared to what most of us are used to. Plus I would hate to degrade the quality of the image by throwing an adapter on there with what will more than likely be lower quality glass.