What does this mean?

[RECON RSS DRONE]

The world is now officially in financial turmoil. Our accelerated schedule for Scarlet and EPIC deliveries seem to coincide with a dead market.

I see no reason to continue to pay for rapid development and pushed schedules when the world is not ready to buy our product in the quantities that justify our urgency. Sure... there are many that will pay now for Scarlet and EPIC on time deliveries. But the volumes we had counted on to support our massive overtime effort to get this done quickly... just aren't there. Retail camera sales are currently off 40-50%.

We are continuing to progress, but now at a normal rate. My decision. I expect this to impact delivery schedules somewhat.

This is real life. Things change. We have always said that because I have seen what can happen. I actually expected this downturn, just not to this degree.

We stay committed to keeping our customers posted. This is one of those times.

Put your helmets on. Expect difficult times for a couple of years. And please don't ask us to ignore the drama that has hit everyone worldwide. It just doesn't make good business sense.

Jim


More... (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26468&goto=newpost)

[Angus Mackay]

Jim,

While this is deeply disappointing it is entirely understandable. Realism has long taken hold in any case, and most of us have already commited to alternative formats for this summers projects.

Hopefully Scarlet will still be a reality in time for next years work.

Being realistic though, I guess it also means that a number of people who have been saving and waiting will just go out and buy Sony/ Canon product.

Mr K

[Granty]

Being realistic a guess many a person here have already anticipated an extended delay. I ain't in a rush to get a Scarlet, even if it is such a dream camera. I guess that it is ready when it is ready, and it is good to know that the Scarlet is in development, accelerated or not.

[Tim Hole]

I concer. I was ready for this, and in some ways it helps as I don't have to rush myself. I am completely commited to Scarlet and will buy one as soon as it appears on the market.

Hopefully for us they have reached the point of no return and don't plan on thining out the projected models/brains and the price point won't change too much if at all. We will just have to wait and see.

All hail RED!

[Michael Parker]

Thanks for the heads-up, Jim. As long as Scarlet is ready within the next year or so... I'll wait. Looks like it will be worth it.

Mike

[harmonica]

It's great that Jim updates everyone on developments like this.

I'm actually more impressed that they were pushing it so hard up until this point.

A couple months "delay" if you can even call it that [since it's normal speed now instead of accelerated], is nothing to complain about.

[mbeck]

Thanks for the update Jim. I will forge ahead with my new D90.. and I will keep saving my money for the wonderful scarlet.. no matter how long I have to wait :)

[Learvis]

I'll be waiting like everyone else the money for the two Scarlets I want is still in the bank waiting to be sent. On a good note my Canon 5D MK II came in this morning so I'll have something to play with for now!:happyhappy:

[Zhibo Lai]

Thanks for the update.. I was wondering how Red could keep at their pace with every news channel spilling out the woes of the economy.

I'm still with you guys 100%. This just gives me more time to perfect my craft and sharpen my skills, while saving up money for Red.

EDIT: I was at the MAC Business Solution workshop last night here in the DC area, and a company brought in their Red One to show off. And they won over the crowd by far with at leat 1 hour of Q&A. You should have seen the eyes flare up with intrigue and astonsihment at those who never heard of the camera before. Red def shook up the room last night.

[Xfilman21]

I wasn't planning to buy Scarlet for another year and half anyway so I am not to disappointed. I will just make do with the HMC150 for now and continue to upgrade my computer until my lady is ready. However I can see the doubters and naysayers picking back up again sigh! We are all in this together and I respect Jim for having the backbone not to rush a project.

[axiomission]

I'm actually happy they delayed this.

While I'm saving up money, RED can be at work doing what they do best: make good cameras, at no rush.

I won't need a Scarlet until 2011, so thank you RED for all the blood, sweat, and tears you've put into this project. I'm deeply grateful!

[geoffreyEUGENEivie]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v56/bigbadlemurtamer/luke_NOOOOOO.jpg

[JonFairhurst]

Bummer news.

Jim, I would think that you can estimate the cost of every lost week of sales and estimate the cost of speeding up the critical path and make the best business decisions. Some expediting might still make sense. Other items that made sense before might not now.

Keep in mind that for every week that you delay introduction of a product, it doesn't hold that the obsolescence of the product will also be delayed by a week. It's truly a loss of sales that doesn't come back. Of course, the competition might also be cutting projects or delaying development, so Scarlet's product life might be growing without any action on RED's part. (Or the competition is hungrier than ever and has just painted a target on Scarlet's back. You never know.)

Anyway, while the economy of the US and the world are hopelessly complex, the economic decisions about expediting for time to market are pretty straightforward. Do the analysis, make the decisions, and eventually, sell the product...

[David Gray]

Noooooo, haha.

Hopefully won't be delayed by too much. Can't wait to get my hands on one. Was planning to incorporate red workflow into a business I could be starting at the end of the year. This could be more tricky now as r1 availability to me isn't as easy as my own fixed lens. :(

[David Rasberry]

Running your team into the ground with long overtime hours for days and weeks on end doesn't necessarily help productivity. Beyond a certain point fatigue and burnout take their toll.
The reduction in hours will delay things some, but maybe not as much as we or Jim might think at this point. A fresher and more rested team will be likely more productive for the hours they do put in.

[axiomission]

Running your team into the ground with long overtime hours for days and weeks on end doesn't necessarily help productivity. Beyond a certain point fatigue and burnout take their toll.
The reduction in hours will delay things some, but maybe not as much as we or Jim might think at this point. A fresher and more rested team will be likely more productive for the hours they do put in.

I completely agree.

[JonFairhurst]

Often times, a really motivated team will work long hours due to inspiration (and maybe obsession.) Just make sure to reward them well when the job is done - especially with time off.

I think Jim might be referring to paying for expedited deliveries from suppliers, which requires cold, hard cash.

[Peter Mosiman]

I think Jim might be referring to paying for expedited deliveries from suppliers, which requires cold, hard cash.

Which is something I do not have. hehe. :thumbsup:

[Joseph Hutson]

is it possible camera sales are down because people have been holding back to buy an epic or scarlet. A lose-lose situation. :embarassed:

[John Caballero]

No surprise here. I said not long ago that this was going to happen. I don't think only the economy is the reason for this. Technological difficulties are going to wreck havoc. Trust me, if Scarlet was so easy to create the big guys would have done it long ago. Watch and see, the wait is going to be very, very long. Better go out and buy a camera thats out now if you want to be part of the game now.

[Joseph Hutson]

No surprise here. I said not long ago that this was going to happen. I don't think only the economy is the reason for this. Technological difficulties are going to wreck havoc. Trust me, if Scarlet was so easy to create the big guys would have done it long ago. Watch and see, the wait is going to be very, very long. Better go out and buy a camera thats out now if you want to be part of the game now.

I think we knew what your take was gonna be on this. :D just kidding

[John Caballero]

What can you say! :head_explode:

[Jared Caldwell]

No surprise here. I said not long ago that this was going to happen. I don't think only the economy is the reason for this. Technological difficulties are going to wreck havoc. Trust me, if Scarlet was so easy to create the big guys would have done it long ago. Watch and see, the wait is going to be very, very long. Better go out and buy a camera thats out now if you want to be part of the game now.

Sony?

[Ameer Azari]

Film Makers don't wait for cameras...Cameras wait for Film Makers.


...and Chuck Norris.

[Bryan Arnold]

Come on guys, two months is not a serious delay. I understand that if you haven't got a camera yet this could be a little frustrating but for those who are already out shooting this is not really bad news.

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Come on guys, two months is not a serious delay. I understand that if you haven't got a camera yet this could be a little frustrating but for those who are already out shooting this is not really bad news.That's two more months. Considering that Scarlet was originally supposed to be out in "early 2009," the delay could amount to ten months or so in total, if there are no further delays. The pattern, however, has been to push release later and later. That the redesign last autumn accidentally coincided with the financial meltdown unfortunately didn't help. I think John Caballero may be right -- we may be in for a very long wait.

[Gleth]

I'm not unhappy with the delay, it pushes when I get my Scarlet closer to the start of next year's football (soccer) season, which was when I'd start using the one I plan to buy anyway. Luckily I'm still paying for my current camera, so I've got protection against the temptation to upgrade while waiting. :-)

[Sichlau]

I understand that if you haven't got a camera yet this could be a little frustrating ...

Exactly! For people like me with that kind of problem, it's really frustrating, cause I can't afford to buy a waiting camera - not a real good one at least, I guess I can start to buy microphones, that's a start. For me it's most frustrating because I don't REALLY know what I'm waiting for. For all I know I might have hyped the camera to be much greater and have totally unrealistic quality, so it's gonna be a let down. The specs are not worth much without proof, tests and stuff. And the sooner this is out, the more patient I can be.

[David Rasberry]

Exactly! For people like me with that kind of problem, it's really frustrating, cause I can't afford to buy a waiting camera - not a real good one at least, I guess I can start to buy microphones, that's a start. For me it's most frustrating because I don't REALLY know what I'm waiting for. For all I know I might have hyped the camera to be much greater and have totally unrealistic quality, so it's gonna be a let down. The specs are not worth much without proof, tests and stuff. And the sooner this is out, the more patient I can be.

If you want to see what you are waiting for, take a look at footage and examples from RED 1. Download Redcine or one of the other freeware packages from RED, download some native .r3d clips from redrelay.com and sample the workflow. Play with it, learn it.
Everything about the new ones, sensors, software and processing is next gen up, so you will not likely see anything of lesser quality than the R1 is capable of now, even from the 2/3" version.

[Sichlau]

If you want to see what you are waiting for, take a look at footage and examples from RED 1. Download Redcine or one of the other freeware packages from RED, download some native .r3d clips from redrelay.com and sample the workflow. Play with it, learn it.
Everything about the new ones, sensors, software and processing is next gen up, so you will not likely see anything of lesser quality than the R1 is capable of now, even from the 2/3" version.

Are you saying the quality of even the fixed 2/3 Scarlet will be equal or almost equal in quality, compared to Red1?

[David Rasberry]

According to the announced specs, it will be better than the current Mysterium sensor RED 1 shooting at 3k resolution. Higher frame rates and at least one stop better dynamic range. Check out some of the RED 1 3k clips, or for that matter even the 2k clips look superb. There are quite a few R1 shooters that regularly shoot 2k for HDTV for commercials and such where the full 4k resolution is just not needed. The sweet spot for broadcast HD resolution is around 600 TV lines and 2k can resolve to that level just fine.
Absolute worst case, 2/3" Scarlet will be at least as good as R1 2k.

[a2z media]

Glad I was able to get my hands on a 5d mkII. Screw the economy. Full steam ahead.

[Bryan Arnold]

Screw the economy. Full steam ahead.

:D exactly!

If you need a camera right now you shouldn't wait. I've seen stuff shot on RED 1 that did not outshine the HD or even SD work of the same company. Red has an obvious edge when it comes to displaying very large images, but in HD the difference is not that big. Ordinary people (I personally know) really don't even care about HD. I'm still delivering my final masters in SD because that's what my clients request. Just go out and buy something. It'll help the economy so that RED can deliver on time :thumbsup:

If you want a RED camera (like me) then I think you should have patience with them. Just let 'm do their thing and it will be all fine.

[Isaac Brody]

Well the 5Dmkii looks a lot more attractive right about now. I've seen a lot of great footage coming from it.

[Jared Caldwell]

I am a little taken aback by some of the chatter I have been hearing. I understand that waiting has been excruciating, but Jim is saying only a couple of months or so. We aren't talking about another year or anything.

There seems to be two camps: those who are upset because they are holding off all of their projects until they get a scarlet, and those that are pushing people to buy a new camera now.

To me, it seems the best thing to do is to rent/borrow/make do with what you have, MAKE YOUR FILMS NOW, and then grab a Scarlet a few months later.

For those not making films, make them if you are a filmmaker! For those that are making them, remember, you don't always have to own your own equipment.

The 5DmII and the d90 are both fine tools, but they have their own set of problems. After the initial rush, I feel most will be wishing they had a "real" professional cinema tool. I am not telling you how to buy, but for me, neither camera are what I am looking for in a professional digital cinema tool.

As always, just make sure you are still actively making films. No need for negativity! :}

[holy_handgrenade]

Well, I'm hoping you're right, and optimistic that you are right. All my money is locked up until August, so regardless of if they shipped on time, I still couldn't buy until August. The film I want to shoot is my own, self funded feature - there isn't a cast as of yet, and it's still in preprod - I was hoping to shoot late fall (Oct/Nov) this year, but if that doesnt work out, there's always next spring :D

My money's locked on Scarlet though, so whenever it comes out, I'm ready to buy. Until then the HG20 seems to be quite handy for everything I'm doing right now

[Granty]

Jared, I think renting is a option for some. But it isn't for me as I need to do months of R&D with a camera before a shoot, talking 4-5months solid use.

IMO an Indie shouldn't use more than a couple of camera's, and those camera's need to become an extension of oneself, and I don't think you can do that renting. The Indie needs to be litrally sleeping with that machine, it is a professional tool like how a guitar or piano is a tool for another type of an Artist, and you don't get good on that tool renting it when you need it, a couple of hours practice per day is needed to master a tool, maybe with a camera a good 4 hours per week. I'd expect a good Indie filmmaker that is multi-tasking on a production to be doing the same time on sound, lighting and post. You don't learn to use a piano professionally by reading the manual, it will be helpful at some point to do that, but sooner or later you need to start playing and continue to play at a set regular time.

It is wrong to asume once you know one camera that you know them all, but the more knowledge that you have of differing machines the quicker it will be that you learn a new one. But it is more about instinctively knowing where a function is, like knowing where a G chord can be found on a guitar, and reaching for that with the right timing and control.

You need to know that camera in different lighting and settings, that sensor needs to become a best friend, you need to increase instinct using that machine, if you put the settings at X, Y & Z in this light and add A, B, C in post you get this look/effect, but if you turn down X, switch off Y & push Z, then do A, E, F in post you get this effect, that will be different for each camera and post software, and you really have no way of knowing that without practice, practice and a bit more practice. It isn't really about pushing a camera to a limit, but befriending it, knowing that it has a good side and a bad side, and using every side to your own creative advantage.

I rarely see an example of a filmmaker knowing a camera to this extent, I haven't seen such a thing in the last 12 months, understanding it as a friend and and using it to the best potential, when you do see it you know it because it shines through. And that is because everybody is getting focused on bettering technology and advancing that technology, rather than understanding it and making creative choices with that in mind.

[Luke Stewart]

Well the 5Dmkii looks a lot more attractive right about now. I've seen a lot of great footage coming from it.

Ditto. Not sure if I want to keep waiting. Ugh, this sucks.

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Are you saying the quality of even the fixed 2/3 Scarlet will be equal or almost equal in quality, compared to Red1?
Yes, within certain parameters. The dynamic range is supposed to be a little better, and the Redcode quality level will be higher (Redcode 42 vs. 36). But Red One is a 4.5K camera while Scarlet is 3K. It's also unrealistic to compare fixed Scarlet's lens to top-of-the-line cine glass. But, yes, overall, Scarlet should be comparable. That's assuming everything goes according to plan and specs aren't reduced or the camera isn't killed.

[moises]

I have to film a long featured fiction movie this summer. I wanted to buy two S35 Scarlets but now I feel very disappointed :( and I need to look for an alternative. Any suggestion?

[Granty]

I have to film a long featured fiction movie this summer. I wanted to buy two S35 Scarlets but now I feel very disappointed :( and I need to look for an alternative. Any suggestion?

Any semi-pro/pro camera that does 1080P.

But the Ikonoskop may be the best affordable pro camera, here real soon.

But depends on budget and technical limitations of the production, but it isn't about what you shoot on, but how good you do it, anything from a HVX/HMC through to a Z7 or Ikonoskop, and ending with a Red One or Viper.

Even think about those cheap russian 16mm $500, or 35mm for $1000-2000, plus stock.

[Angus Mackay]

I have to film a long featured fiction movie this summer. I wanted to buy two S35 Scarlets but now I feel very disappointed :( and I need to look for an alternative. Any suggestion?

In addition to ProductBe's suggestions I would suggest:

1. Sony EX3 (if you want to go purely tapeless and are on a pretty tight budget). You can get decent glass on the front of it without any goofy DoF devices. Hurrah!

2. Sony 700 series XDcam (if you have a little more dough). Very nice pictures and a well balanced codec/workflow.

Mr K

[David Gray]

I second both of Mr K's recommendations. The 700 is an amazing camera if your budget would stretch to it. Records a higher bit rate codec too; 50 mb/s.

[Joseph Hutson]

Or if you have a smaller budget, the Z5U or Z7U.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Very bummer indeed, but timing is still working for me.

I'll just stick with my HDV and do good stuff with it, anyway what's the point of getting a Scarlet if I'm still a rookie.

Best of luck RED and Jim, people will be thirst for your products when they are ready.

:)

[James M]

I am a little taken aback by some of the chatter I have been hearing. I understand that waiting has been excruciating, but Jim is saying only a couple of months or so. We aren't talking about another year or anything.

There seems to be two camps: those who are upset because they are holding off all of their projects until they get a scarlet, and those that are pushing people to buy a new camera now.

To me, it seems the best thing to do is to rent/borrow/make do with what you have, MAKE YOUR FILMS NOW, and then grab a Scarlet a few months later.

*********

As always, just make sure you are still actively making films. No need for negativity! :}


I certainly agree with the point you are making but not everyone can simply afford to buy a camera now and even several months down the road buy another one. Even in the best of economies that isn't the best business plan. For some their gear is how they pay the bills. And once that money is tied up in one platform the commitment is made.

Anyone who has a vision should definitely not wait for technology to catch up or wait for a specific piece of gear. But aside from the independently wealthy or those with well heeled patrons most of us have budgets to consider. Sure, some have more funds than others but at the end of the day no one wants to spend more than necessary. Even renting starts to add up if you're like me and make films on your own dime.

If you've decided the Scarlet is the camera for you then anything short of having it in your hands starts to grate. That doesn't mean it's the right mindset but that's the situation.

At times there seems to be a "love it or leave it" mentality here. But the point of a forum is an exchange of ideas. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. A community is made up of all types of people with all types of opinions. Granted, in an ideal world we'd all make sure they were informed opinions but that's another conversation...

If Jim says the Scarlet Team deserves a rest then who's to argue. But to label any expressed disappointment as needlessly negative is a bit off the mark in my opinion. I seem to recall the disdain for not having interchangeable lenses on the Scarlet getting a lot of traction here when as a professional who has shot HD I was fine with the original fixed lens design. But then again I have the luxury of being able to wait.

I think anyone who doesn't believe in what RED is doing will wander off on their own. In the meantime, a lot of us are simply anxious to get our hands on the toys.

[JonFairhurst]

Then again, ebay changes the game. You can absolutely get something here and now, sell it later, and upgrade to the next new thing. Heck, buy your "now" cam from ebay and you can minimize the depreciation.

If the time is right for your project, don't wait. If Scarlet is the right camera for your future production, there might be no need to compromise - if the bids on ebay go your way.

[jFrancois]

Well, I hate to say it but it seems like the reasonable thing to do. I think we out in the community expect that because Jim is a successful man that he should just look at this as just a passion project and keep rolling full steam ahead. A bit of time to test where the current is heading isn't going to hurt anybody. Disappoint them, but not hurt them.

The ironic thing is that I backed out of my RED ONE because I didn't really need it and the housing market was starting to slow where I live, so I got really cautious. That house is still sitting empty and alone on it's hillside a year and a half later with the price reduce 40% and it still wont sell. Now, I could probably muster a bit of money, even in the down economy, to scoop up a Scarlet and Scarlet will be slowing down. :( Good thing I have friends with the RED :)

Thanks for the update Jim and best of luck in everything.