Mini-RED Primes - What We Know [Archive]

Jason Ramsey

11-17-2008, 05:56 PM

On the big November 13th announcement, RED also unveiled plans for a set of mini-RED Prime lenses for use with the interchangeable 2/3" version of the Scarlet DSMC system.

Little info is known at this point, but all the latest information as it becomes available will be updated here in this thread regarding the mini-red primes.

6.5mm T1.9
8mm T1.5
16mm T1.5
25 T1.8
50 T2.9
75 T4

No pricing information is known at this point. This thread will be updated as new information becomes available.

http://www.scarletuser.com/jason/mini-red.jpg *
*This is only a render taken from the November 13th brochure. It is not necessarily indicative of what the actual lenses will look like.

Later,
Jason

Granty

11-17-2008, 09:27 PM

Not much help but it's all I got:
The mini-RED prime set will be a great option and priced right.

Jim

Peter Mosiman

11-17-2008, 10:03 PM

I wonder what priced right means...

dingos8mybaby

11-17-2008, 10:51 PM

I know those are just renders, but where are the gears on those mini primes?

daveswan

11-18-2008, 12:49 AM

Ok, I admit I'm a novice where cine lenses are concerned, but looking at the renders it seems as though the aperture ring is in front of the focus ring, as it frequently is in R/F lenses.
Is this normal for 16mm / 2/3" lenses? Only the few that I've seen have the aperture in the "normal" rear position.
Dave

fde101

11-18-2008, 04:21 AM

Aperture on those renders IS in the "rear" position...

Look more closely...

"geared" wheels are:

FOCUS on the outside, between the front element opening and the "RED" logo.

APERTURE between the "RED" logo and the aperture markings...

daveswan

11-19-2008, 04:03 AM

Well, what I'm seeing is a rear scale marked 0.15..0.3..0.5 etc with a peg after the 0.15. I assume these are Distance markings.
I then see a comon fiducial mark.
And at the front, in a cut out illegible numbers that look like they could be Aperture markings.
I don't see any gear teath on these renders, but then I don't expect to.
Dave

fde101

11-19-2008, 04:11 AM

Peter Majtan

11-19-2008, 11:41 AM

I wish there was a way to match the T-stop on the lenses, even if that meant little compromise for the fastest ones - or paying a premium to "speed-up" the slower ones...

Granty

11-19-2008, 11:51 AM

The lens do have a few issues, firstly it is nice that they are chunky unlike C-mount lens, they have build them up solid, so you can get a good hold. But the lack of gears as Dingos points out is a major issue, and a minor note is the writing on the lens, reason why other lens don't do this, it is distracting if you are glancing at the lens for a setting, so get those effing adverts off the side of the lens.

Peter Majtan

11-19-2008, 11:55 AM

Granty

11-19-2008, 12:00 PM

They look a nice size all the same, best feature I can see is that chunky casing, hope the glass matches that look. Would be nice to have the T-stop matched, one way or the other even if they comprimise the faster ones they can also do a faster version of any other speeds.

Peter Mosiman

11-19-2008, 02:02 PM

What do you guys mean by matching t-stops?

Peter Majtan

11-19-2008, 05:11 PM

What do you guys mean by matching t-stops?

Both Master & Ultra primes have a matched T-stop lens sets. The main advantage is that You do not need to adjust Your lighting, exposure or any other settings while shooting the same scene with different lenses. Your footage also ends up with the same "look" and it makes for a much easier postproduction, especially color grading...

Snow

11-29-2008, 12:24 AM

What about zoom lenses?
It will be hard to shoot a wide range of styles without a zoom lens...

Pietro Impagliazzo

11-29-2008, 03:11 AM

What about zoom lenses?
It will be hard to shoot a wide range of styles without a zoom lens...

That's what me and many other people are saying.

RED Mini Zoom is needed.

7-70mm? 10-100mm?

Whatever, we just need one.

:thumbsup:

Uly Mostrales

12-01-2008, 09:59 AM

Having a Mini-RED zoom lens would be great!

Peter Mosiman

12-07-2008, 08:26 PM

Both Master & Ultra primes have a matched T-stop lens sets. The main advantage is that You do not need to adjust Your lighting, exposure or any other settings while shooting the same scene with different lenses. Your footage also ends up with the same "look" and it makes for a much easier postproduction, especially color grading...

Gotcha. This is only for sets of lenses though right? typical cannon's/nikons don't have matched T-stop lenses do they?

Peter Majtan

12-08-2008, 12:18 AM

Gotcha. This is only for sets of lenses though right? typical cannon's/nikons don't have matched T-stop lenses do they?

Well, kind off...

I'm for example getting for my Red One a Canon zoom set, where all lenses are f/2.8:

EF 16-35mm f/2.8
EF 24-70mm f/2.8
EF 70-200mm f/2.8
and then a matched f/2.8 Macro MP-E 65mm (1-5x)

:D Peter

Bryan Arnold

12-08-2008, 04:45 AM

The fixed lens is a zoom lens. I don't think the'll have a hard time to make that one available for the interchangable 2/3".

Peter Majtan

12-08-2008, 07:12 AM

The fixed lens is a zoom lens. I don't think the'll have a hard time to make that one available for the interchangable 2/3".

Maybe. They have specifically said that the fixed-lens Scarlet has a larger body to accommodate the fixed lens. I am not saying it is going to be impossible, just pointing out that it might not be so straight forward...

:D Peter

David Rasberry

12-08-2008, 07:42 AM

They have the optics for the zoom worked out. I would be a matter of engineering a completely new lens housing with manual controls in place of the fly-by-wire electronics. Does anyone know if the mini-red mount has electronic interface contacts?

Peter Mosiman

12-09-2008, 12:50 AM

Maybe. They have specifically said that the fixed-lens Scarlet has a larger body to accommodate the fixed lens. I am not saying it is going to be impossible, just pointing out that it might not be so straight forward...

:D Peter

Peter/anyone,
Isn't the larger body meant to accommodate the extra internal housing the fixed will need need in order for it to be a fixed lens that works directly with the electronics? I would assume that it would be as simple as taking that lens and just making it work with a mount instead of being "fly-by-wire" as the fixed is. (of course, its probably not that simple to do, but the idea is simple, just so there is no confusion).

Peter Majtan

12-09-2008, 02:17 AM

As I've said - sure it is possible. After all the main issue is the optical design. All I was saying is that it is not as straight forward as many may believe. Especially because of the fly-by-wire thingy... :D

JaimeBailon

12-17-2008, 11:49 PM

my wishes are the whole set of primes for 1k or under=]

Ameer Azari

12-18-2008, 02:01 AM

my wishes are the whole set of primes for 1k or under=]

You and I both...

Pietro Impagliazzo

12-18-2008, 03:26 AM

I'd say 2k combining reality with wishful thinking.

:)

Jaime Valles

12-18-2008, 06:40 AM

my wishes are the whole set of primes for 1k or under=]
Damn... That would rock, indeed. I doubt it, but here's hoping! :head_explode:

Granty

12-18-2008, 10:27 AM

Damn... That would rock, indeed. I doubt it, but here's hoping!

BTW, happy birthday Mr. Valles, happy birthday, it's mine tomorrow.

JaimeBailon

12-18-2008, 11:05 AM

yes 2k would still very do-able for me
considering around 5k for the body and lenses would cost about the same as an hvx

as of now we have no clue when the next announcement will be right?

Kyle Presley

12-18-2008, 11:38 AM

If there is a zoom lens for the i-version, it will probably be fully manual. Otherwise, why have a fixed version at all?

fde101

12-18-2008, 12:06 PM

For the miniRED mount, it may be that the mount itself won't support the automatic lenses...

Even a fully manual zoom (or two) on the miniRED mount would be a nice addition to the miniRED primes. I could go for that...

Jaime Valles

12-19-2008, 10:20 AM

BTW, happy birthday Mr. Valles, happy birthday, it's mine tomorrow.
Why, thank you very much! Happy birthday to you, too! Enjoy the day, and if possible, take a bubble bath. It's amazing how relaxing one of those can be! :bath:

Sagittarians rule! :thumbsup:

Back on topic, a mini-zoom at T2.8 would be awesome. Especially if it came in at under $1K.

Kris Colavecchio

12-26-2008, 08:31 PM

Back on topic, a mini-zoom at T2.8 would be awesome. Especially if it came in at under $1K.

yea if so i couldnt keep my hands off it, im still hoping to pick up the mini prime set for under 3 grand i dono how much more id pay for the set:shocked:

Centaurion

12-27-2008, 12:54 AM

yea if so i couldnt keep my hands off it, im still hoping to pick up the mini prime set for under 3 grand i dono how much more id pay for the set:shocked:

That's the reason I would go with the S35.

You could end up paying $2,500 + $3000 for the lenses. That's $5,500.

You could get a set of Canon EF primes for about $1000 - Thus a S35 Scarlet and Lenses comes to about $8000.

Yes, it's a $2,500 leap, but I'm pretty sure the S35 will kick a** if you compare it to the 2/3". And the lenses can be re-used if you uprgrade to a FF35 or an EPIC.

David Gray

12-27-2008, 05:57 AM

It might be worth reminding everyone that the mini primes are going to be motion lenses where as Canon and Nikon are still lenses. While I'm sure they will deliver beautiful results as we have already seen on adapters etc.

Motion lenses tend to have among other things better edge to edge sharpness, nicer brokeh as they normally have more blades and perhaps most importantly for some people less breathing. This is still dependant on the cost of your motion lenses of course.

We can't really comment until we see the mini primes but there's my .02.

nahawand

12-28-2008, 07:07 AM

Well, kind off...

I'm for example getting for my Red One a Canon zoom set, where all lenses are f/2.8:

EF 16-35mm f/2.8
EF 24-70mm f/2.8
EF 70-200mm f/2.8
and then a matched f/2.8 Macro MP-E 65mm (1-5x)

:D Peter

Peter, I don't think that these lenses are F/2.8 all the way in their zoom rage.. so, you'll end up with variable f-stop range ... I think they're called F/2.8-4 or 5.6 etc ...

daveswan

12-28-2008, 07:30 AM

No, they're all fixed aperture, it's why you pay more for them. If the apperture's variable, the lens manufacturer will say.
BTW those are all "L" glass costing well in excess of £!000 each and are damned good (ie I wish I could afford them but can't!)

Peter Majtan

12-28-2008, 08:57 AM

RobinBalas

12-28-2008, 10:52 AM

As Dave pointed out correctly above - these are the more expensive "L" series and they do indeed have a fixed aperture all the way through their zoom range - which is why I have specifically selected this bunch. It makes life so much easier on the set by not having to adjust the lighting or camera settings every time I change lens...

:D Peter

The lenses you chose are very good, I own and use them all.
But are you really sure you know the MP-E 65? It might say f/2.8 but it is not f/2.8. Read http://photo.net/equipment/canon/mp-e-65 Then you need to be aware of the fact that "pull out factor" or what it might be called in english is not shown on Canon equipment as it is shown on Nikon equipment. You need a dedicated E-TTL macro flash to have a small chance of correct exposure and the DoF at f/16 (which really is f/64 at 1x and f/96 at 5x light wise) is a few tenths of a mm on 5x. Look at http://foto.no/cgi-bin/bilder/vis_bilde.cgi?id=117951&imageoffset=148&offset=120&brukerid=23136 that is shot with my lens by a former assistant I had. It shows f/16 and a needle pinned through a metric measure tape. There is 1mm between the black lines. The amount of light needed for this shot is almost impossible to handle with a continuos light source, flash is mandatory.
Note that you can't focus this lens, you can only change the magnification. Focus is done by moving the whole rig closer or further away from the subject, hence a macro rail with micro adjustment is very usefull.
But if you have the dedication you might find a way to use it and make some cheat sheet of measures to go by, so good luck on that. It takes a lot of training to master this lens with a dedicated E-TTL macro flash, doing it manually is a real challenge. But you seem to be a person who like challenges so please prove me wrong and then tell me how you did it ;)
MHO.

Edit: Some more
f/16 5x http://foto.no/cgi-bin/bilder/vis_bilde.cgi?id=117131&imageoffset=49&serieid=5257&offset=30&brukerid=23136
f/16 less magnification http://foto.no/cgi-bin/bilder/vis_bilde.cgi?id=121845&imageoffset=40&serieid=5257&offset=30&brukerid=23136
f/16 3x http://foto.no/cgi-bin/bilder/vis_bilde.cgi?id=115999&imageoffset=52&serieid=5257&offset=30&brukerid=23136
f/16 ?x http://foto.no/cgi-bin/bilder/vis_bilde.cgi?id=117467&imageoffset=48&serieid=5257&offset=30&brukerid=23136
f/16 ?x http://foto.no/cgi-bin/bilder/vis_bilde.cgi?id=138189&imageoffset=30&serieid=5257&offset=30&brukerid=23136

Peter Majtan

12-28-2008, 11:29 AM

Thanks Robin for the feedback. I am indeed aware of the MPE pros & cons, as well as the "modus operandi"... And I indeed love challenges. I have just tested the 17-85mm EFs lens with the EF-25-II extender, turning it into extreme macro. I was about 3" away from the subjects. The bee shots took me 2 hrs for three takes... :devil:

J Davis

12-30-2008, 11:11 PM

If you want to use mini-primes for indie film making,
see this post on reduser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=351702#post351702
the red mini primes don't appear to have teeth on them for follow focus gears.

I am hoping this is an oversight in the renders.
J

** pic links to post 1
http://www.scarletuser.com/jason/mini-red.jpg

David Gray

12-31-2008, 04:48 AM

Sure it is just the renders.

Can't believe red would sell a cine lens without teeth. They're still quite a way off yet so wouldn't get too worried/excited about them.

NiTx

01-19-2009, 04:19 AM

Sure it is just the renders.

Can't believe red would sell a cine lens without teeth. They're still quite a way off yet so wouldn't get too worried/excited about them.

Exactly, many times with red this has happened. Plus even if they did plan it without, fear not, the Red Team is always listing.

ALWAYS!!! MwahaahahahaAHAHAHAAHA :head_explode:

handiro

03-30-2009, 10:16 AM

I just found some Schneider Kreuznach Xenon 25 mm 1:0.95 lenses...c-mount....any good ?

Horncastle

03-31-2009, 05:16 PM

I just found some Schneider Kreuznach Xenon 25 mm 1:0.95 lenses...c-mount....any good ?

Some of the Panasonic G1 owners are using them. If you google Xenon+Panasonic G1 you should be able to find some examples of shots on the web, although probably not full resolution. You'll notice a little vignetting on the corners but the 4/3rds format is a lot larger than the Scarlet 2/3rds, so they will cover fine (they are made to cover up to a 1" sensor).

Are they any good? As a very low light lens for specific shots they are probably pretty much as good as it gets - approaching or equal to the Angenieux 25mm/0.95 (and their second hand price usually reflects it). As a normal, every day, prime lens though you are probably better off getting something not quite so bright.

Jason

Kyle Presley

03-31-2009, 06:55 PM

As a normal, every day, prime lens though you are probably better off getting something not quite so bright.

Jason

ND would remedy that. If you shot wide open with these, you're s35mm equivalent is f/2.0. That's shallow.

c.s.p productions

04-13-2009, 12:46 PM

So these work with Scarlet Cinema and S35? You can shoot 3k and 5k through the same lens? Impressive.

Jason Ramsey

04-13-2009, 12:51 PM

these are for the 2/3" interchangeable scarlet... this is the 2/3" lens section :)

Think you should start by reading this entire page for starters and get up to speed a bit:
www.red.com/epic_scarlet

Now... Jarred has posted frame grabs from the 2/3" scarlet using a 35mm lens (100mm prime), so we know that is quite possible. but, the reverse, would not be a very wise choice (using 2/3" lenses on a 35mm sensor size camera). :)

You can shoot 3k and 5k with the same lens if you are using 35mm lenses on the S35 Scarlet, for example.... sure. But, if 3k is windowed, then your focal length will change. 50mm in 5k S35 will be wider than that same lens in 3k mode on the S35

Later,
Jason

Pietro Impagliazzo

04-13-2009, 01:46 PM

"your focal length will have to change" or "FOV will change"

Just to avoid confusion.

Jason Ramsey

04-13-2009, 05:14 PM

sorry... meant to say Field of View... But, I hadn't slept yet at the time I typed that... :)

later,
jason

Luke Stewart

04-13-2009, 05:24 PM

No matching T-stops make me lean very heavily toward the Fixed Scarlet. (Fixed sounds like neutered, we gotta change that) Seems like they could all be T 1.8 or 1.9, excluding the 50mm and the 75mm.

Like this-
6.5mm T1.8
8mm T1.8
16mm T1.8
25 T1.8
50 T2.9
75 T4

Peter Mosiman

04-13-2009, 05:52 PM

im guessing luke that they did what they did because its the most price effective way to build the best quality lenses.

David Gray

04-13-2009, 07:20 PM

I'm not quite sure why your complaining. You just get a little more headroom on some of the lenses which is nothing but a good thing IMO.

I'm sure some of the others might get a little fast by release too going on Red's previous performance.

Luke Stewart

04-14-2009, 07:05 AM

I'm not quite sure why your complaining. You just get a little more headroom on some of the lenses which is nothing but a good thing IMO.
Peter explained it earlier in the thread better than I can-
Both Master & Ultra primes have a matched T-stop lens sets. The main advantage is that You do not need to adjust Your lighting, exposure or any other settings while shooting the same scene with different lenses. Your footage also ends up with the same "look" and it makes for a much easier postproduction, especially color grading...

im guessing luke that they did what they did because its the most price effective way to build the best quality lenses. Maybe. I would also guess that raising the two fastest lenses, the 8mm and the 16mm, from T1.5 to 1.8 or 1.9 would not increase manufacturing costs, but what do I know? I'm not a lens maker.

Peter Mosiman

04-14-2009, 11:59 AM

Peter explained it earlier in the thread better than I can-

Maybe. I would also guess that raising the two fastest lenses, the 8mm and the 16mm, from T1.5 to 1.8 or 1.9 would not increase manufacturing costs, but what do I know? I'm not a lens maker.

haha me neither. ah well.

fde101

04-14-2009, 03:08 PM

Figure out the slowest fastest T-stop of the lenses you need for that scene, and don't use the faster settings of the other lenses.

Navigas

04-19-2009, 09:39 AM

I hope there will be more info on the mini´s soon... Not that I need it before the scarlet is for sale. I´m jus craveing information :)

David Gray

04-19-2009, 11:15 AM

Well NAB this week red could have a nice surprise. :) Soon find out.

Peter Mosiman

04-19-2009, 11:37 AM

Well NAB this week red could have a nice surprise. :) Soon find out.

I am with you there David. I am so anxious to se what they are going to pull out for the Rio party. :happyhappy:

Dances With Cameras

05-18-2009, 04:49 PM

That's what me and many other people are saying.

RED Mini Zoom is needed.

7-70mm? 10-100mm?

Whatever, we just need one.

:thumbsup:

The one from the Fixed model, but - detachable from a REDMount.

:thumbsup:

Peter Mosiman

05-18-2009, 05:07 PM

The one from the Fixed model, but - detachable from a REDMount.

:thumbsup:

I doubt that will happen because what they are doing inside the Fixed model is truly integrating it into the camera system's electronics and all that jazz. But what do I know, I ain't no lens maker! ;)

dingos8mybaby

05-18-2009, 06:25 PM

Yeah, a fully manual 10:1 zoom for the 2/3i would rock.

Peter Majtan

05-19-2009, 02:10 AM

The one from the Fixed model, but - detachable from a REDMount.

:thumbsup:

Jim did stated that this won't happen. The way the lens is integrated deep into the body of the fixed-lens Scarlet will make it extremely difficult to make it a stand-alone zoom...

I hate to bear the bad news...

:violin:

DMS

05-19-2009, 03:12 AM

If these primes can give the DigiPrimes a run for the money at T4, I'm totally game regardless of the Tstop variance. There's no way the build and mechanical performance would match up, but if the optics are somewhat close... I don't expect miracles, but I do hope for them :)

NiTx

08-06-2009, 03:09 AM

I agree with Peter, and I really really hope Jim makes all the speeds the same and just make it more expensive. I have no skills as a colorist and at this stage I'm all by my self in this industry.Having the same T stop will give me a stable workflow I think. Well at least it will help.

Fingers crossed that me and Peter get it our way, if not I'll still buy them, and I'll probly still be amazed.

Halsu

08-06-2009, 05:31 AM

I agree with Peter, and I really really hope Jim makes all the speeds the same and just make it more expensive. I have no skills as a colorist and at this stage I'm all by my self in this industry.Having the same T stop will give me a stable workflow I think. Well at least it will help.

What stops you from shooting by the lowest common denominator - i.e. use all the lenses at T2.0?

You don't have to shoot everything full open you know...

Luke Stewart

09-02-2009, 08:56 PM

So I'm thinking about the mini primes again... and wondering which ones I need vs which ones I want, vs lenses I have been buying off ebay, etc, etc.

So in order to help myself, I calculated the FF equiv for each mini prime (using 3.888):

6.5mm T1.9 = 25mm
8mm T1.5 = 31mm
16mm T1.5 = 62mm
25 T1.8 = 97mm
50 T2.9 = 194mm
75 T4 = 292mm

Because of the crop factor, its very easy to buy second hand glass that will give a you a nice telephoto at a low f stop, but try and find wide angle glass that is fast, and you quickly find that only high dollar lenses qualify. So I think I am definitely going to get the 6.5, the 8 and the 16, and maybe the 25.

I have been shooting with a 5D lately, and anything under 40mm seems quite wide.

DMS

10-22-2009, 03:47 AM

It's probably best to buy the whole set because the coloration, contrast, and characteristics will match up better, rather than to mix with primes you buy on ebay.

I know its only a week until they give us details about almost everything, but I hope they introduce these mini-primes with PL mounts rather than a proprietary red mount or C mount. That way I can switch between my zoom and the mini primes easily.

I know people who have C mount lenses would hate that. It's just that if I'm spending $5000 (guess) for a lens set, I don't want it to be with the C mount, it's an archaic way to go.

Perhaps they can make them with both mounts... but that's asking a lot for a limited market.

So I'm thinking about the mini primes again... and wondering which ones I need vs which ones I want, vs lenses I have been buying off ebay, etc, etc.

David Rasberry

10-22-2009, 05:36 AM

I'm hoping the mini-red mount is large enough that c-mount lenses can be converted with a relatively simple screw on adapter.
It will be worth waiting for the MP prices as good used c-mount primes have been getting ridiculously expensive in some cases due to the cult following of m4/3 format G1/GH1 shooters. Maybe they will restore some sanity to the market. That said I don't expect the MP's to price out under about $800 each if they are as good as they should be.